Powder Post Beetles in Turning Blanks

[timf67]

So last week I was driving down my street and saw that a neighbor had put a bunch of tree limb yard waste out for collection. I strolled down to take a closer look and found that he had cut down a small yoshino cherry that had been dying on him. I saw that the trunk and even some of the larger limbs had good potential for interesting figure and even some burl, so I took some home. Yesterday I noticed some small ~1/8" long black bugs on the trunk. They look shorter and fatter than pictures of PP beetles that I have seen, but I don't want to take any chances. Any thoughts on what I should do? I also have some KD black cherry stored in my garage, do I need to worry about it as well? I would love to keep the wood and see what I can do with it, but if these are beetles I don't want to spread them around...

 

[thrytis]

I've sterilized some wood in my oven after finding insects in it. It appears to have done the job. You might have some problems with checking though if your wood is too green though.

 

[Tarhead]

Will freezing them help? A week at 0 deg F should kill off any live insects. Eggs not sure about.

 

[timf67]

I dont really have access to a large freezer, but I do have access to a "hotbox" at work. I can set the temperature just about anywhere I want in there. What temperature and for how long would be enough to cook the critters?

 

[farmerbw]

Tim, freezing won't take care of the critters, so heat or fumigating are the ways to go. Scott Smith recommended 24 hrs at 135 degrees or higher temp for a shorter time when we were discussing it in this thread.

I typically "cook" the treecycled stock we make ornaments and game pieces from, after cutting it to size, for 40-45 mins at 200 degrees and that seems to do the trick. HTH and good luck.

Brian.

 

[Tarhead]

Scott or Kyle or Reggie are the resident experts and should advise as you need both heat and humidity to cook 'em.

 

[dkeller_nc]

Tim - If the wood's wet, and you've got burls or transverse slices (i.e., "end grain blanks"), then putting them in an oven could well crack them to the point that they're not usable. Fumigation would probably be the best choice in this case. You can use a lot of things as a fumigant, but one I recommended for a friend of Brian (farmerbw) that had PP beetles in some furniture was fumigation by ammonia.

Ammonia can darken certain woods, but one advantage it has over glyphosate insecticides is that it doesn't leave any residue. I believe that brian's friend used 30% ammonium hydroxide, which is what I've used before, but since then one of the Pop Woodworking blogs noted that you can get 10% "janitorial strength" ammonia from a hardware store. That should be a bit more easily obtainable and cheaper, and the kill properties of the ammonia will still work well. You just need to stack your wood with stickers in between over an impervious surface or ground where you don't care whether it kills the plants/grass (and it will!), cover it with a tarp or painter's plastic, seal the edges by piling dirt/sand, and set a pan of the ammonia solution under the tarp.

Several hours should be more than enough to kill absolutely everything in the wood - insects, eggs, fungi, and bacteria, but you may want to go 24 hours to be safe.

Concentrated ammonia is not something you want to get a snootful of, so it's best to wear a respirator rated for chemical exposure - AOL makes a line of these with carbon cartridges for sale at Home Depot for about $15.

 

[scsmith42]

Tim, for the green turning blanks that you have, I would suggest following David Keller's method. Heating green blanks will most likely cause a lot of damage.

In general, I don't advocate heating wood to 135 degrees if it is over 18% MC, and then only for construction grade wood. I prefer the MC% to be below 10% for furniture grade wood.

Scott

 

[timf67]

thanks guys. I work in a chemical plant and we use ~500 gallons a week of 30% ammonia so we have plenty around. Now I just need to find a "container" large enough for my logs:icon_scra Would I be better off cutting the logs into blanks before fuming?

 

[dkeller_nc]

thanks guys. I work in a chemical plant and we use ~500 gallons a week of 30% ammonia so we have plenty around. Now I just need to find a "container" large enough for my logs:icon_scra Would I be better off cutting the logs into blanks before fuming?

For a container, just buy a big sheet of painter's plastic - it's cheap and will do the job as long as you seal the edges by piling dirt, sand or mulch around the periphery. You shouldn't have to cut the blanks into smaller pieces - the tunnels that the PP beetles bore into the wood will allow the ammonia fumes in to kill them and their eggs. Because of the small size of the tunnels, you have to allow enough time for the ammonia to work its way in by diffusion - my guess is that 12 to 24 hours will be more than enough with a quart or so of 30% ammonia in a pan under the tarp.

 

[cpowell]

The timing of this post is good. I haven't read of ammonia fuming before and it may help me.

I have seen signs of PP beetles in some of the AD 8/4 to 10/4 walnut I bought several months ago. No holes in the heartwood but quite a few in the sapwood and I can see the tell-tale powder after having extra pieces stacked in the garage for a few months.

Are there any more specific instructions for ammonia fuming? I can handle stickering and covering with plastic and am clear on sealing the plastic edges with sand/dirt.

Where do I get 30 percent ammonia? If I use 10 percent then how much would I use and for how long?

I also wonder why I haven't seen any signs of tunnels in the heartwood, and I have made a lot of cuts. Do they NOT like walnut sapwood? I have used a good bit in my current project and have simply cut out sapwood as I dimension the piece. The wood has been drying probably 15 years or so.

Chuck

 

[dkeller_nc]

Where do I get 30 percent ammonia? If I use 10 percent then how much would I use and for how long?

I also wonder why I haven't seen any signs of tunnels in the heartwood, and I have made a lot of cuts. Do they NOT like walnut sapwood? I have used a good bit in my current project and have simply cut out sapwood as I dimension the piece. The wood has been drying probably 15 years or so.

PP beetles will not touch the heartwood of Walnut - it's poisonous to them. There are a few other domestic woods that are similar - black locust is one.

30 percent ammonia is something you -used- to be able to get from Thermo-Fisher in Raleigh on a cash basis. Unfortunately, Brian (FarmerBW) found that was no longer the case. I think he ordered it from an internet scientific supply store, but noted that the Hazmat shipping was expensive. For that reason, I think I'd try the "janitorial strength ammonia" that Robert Lang referred to in a Pop Woodworking Blog entry. He noted that it's available at most hardware stores. My guess is that 2 or 3 quarts poured into a shallow plastic container would be sufficient to fumigate a pile 4 feet tall, 10 feet long, 4 feet wide, but that's just a guess.

Be aware that ammonia will darken wood. It was a very common finishing method for Arts and Crafts furniture back in the day.

Also, if you've had this wood stacked in your garage and it's attached to the house, I'd be concerned. There's a chance that the little buggers may have gotten into the structural support timbers of your dwelling, and that's not good. I'd at least go for one of those "free inspection" come-ons by Orkin or one of the other exterminating companies.

 

[timf67]

I also recommend going with the janitorial strength ammonia, you will need more of it but the end result will be the same. The 30% ammonia we use in the plant is nasty stuff and you really need to have a chemical respirator and goggles or face shield to handle it safely.

 

[Ken Massingale]

"PP beetles will not touch the heartwood of Walnut - it's poisonous to them. There are a few other domestic woods that are similar - black locust is one."

I've never heard of this, from where did you get this information?

 

[cpowell]

Also, if you've had this wood stacked in your garage and it's attached to the house, I'd be concerned. There's a chance that the little buggers may have gotten into the structural support timbers of your dwelling, and that's not good. I'd at least go for one of those "free inspection" come-ons by Orkin or one of the other exterminating companies.

I don't believe they pose so great a danger for a 3 month exposure. Given how common PP beetles are, there would be no houses left standing if they were both prolific and wide ranging.

I talked with an entomologist a few years ago about PP beetles after a previous issue with oak and he felt removing infected wood was an adequate remedy.

BTW I get a termite inspection and pay for a pest control treatment contract. I will mention the possibility to the guy next time around.

Thanks for the fumigant advice. I'll give it a shot and look for powder over the next year or so. Fingers crossed.


Chuck

 

[CrealBilly]

Psst... I just fill the holes with a little thin CA and shoot it with accelerator - bugs can't move much when they are preserved in CA, now can they?

 

[dkeller_nc]

"PP beetles will not touch the heartwood of Walnut - it's poisonous to them. There are a few other domestic woods that are similar - black locust is one."

I've never heard of this, from where did you get this information?

Largely hearsay and personal experience. I cut and dry a fair amount of wood, and after 2 or 3 years fo outdoor storage, the walnut sapwood is usually riddled with the adult's exit tunnels, while the heartwood is untouched. Similarly, I've never seen an PP activity in mahogany that I've stored outside.

One clue to the beetle's preferences is in very old furniture. It's common to find PP damage in colonial antiques made of maple, cherry, oak, beech, and secondary woods of white pine, yellow pine, and poplar. I've never seen references in the condition sections of museum piece descriptions to PP damage in walnut or mahogany furniture, however.