Policy, Off topic forum and frustrated users and staff

[SteveColes]

Policy, Off Topic Forums and frustrated users and staff.

Let me share with you my thoughts
:neener:

Having said that, let me explain:gar-La;

Yesterday, a lot of things got out of hand. The moderators were trying to stop the discussion of economics policy,etc. They were having a hard time. I read the thread and posts and agreed we needed to do something. Not only were the topics not allowed by policy, but in the opinion of some of the staff the threads were going in the direction of NOT SO polite a debate.

So much staff time was being taken up by this that an individual post that was a veiled racist remark was totally missed.

However, some of the feedback I was getting from users by PM clearly showed that there was a disconnect between policy and definition. Also several people were saying if we had a written policy they would follow it.

I also found that many of the staff were getting frustrated and didn't understand why users just wouldn't stop posting on the issue.

At this point, I shut down the Off Topic forum becuase there was no way we could resolve all the different issues immediately.

Some points I would like to make.

1. For those that asked for a policy, there already is one. Please take some time to read it.

2. There is one major issue with the policy that I know of, the definition of "political". We have always used a very broad defintion, but if you read a dictionary defintion , it does not cover what we intended. We need to clarify that area so that posters and moderators are wrk from the same base.

3. We have started the staff discussion on the definition of political

To me, a thread is in the political realm if it discusses any issue that involves our government decision making -- war, taxes, economy, voting, etc. In other words, issues like the economic stimulus package versus tax cuts should be prohibited and frankly, I think the Buy American issue is borderline... We may find some issues that relate to woodworking may get close -- e.g., discussions about the new Consumer Product Safety Information Act should be allowed because they impact the woodworking industry. It should be okay to talk about one's personal plight (some members have been laid off), but not to the extent that it is so-and-so's [insert political party] fault.

new definition like "hot button topics are not allowed

4. The off topic forums was never meant to be a place for discussions of things controversial. Why? Becuase outside of the woodworking controversial issues, :dontknow::icon_scra:rotflm:, controversial issues are, well, controversial:swoon: They will only lead to heated debate which almost always ends with hurt feelings and/or anger. You may not think they, but generally they will.

5. So what is the off topic forum for? Well, they are meant to foster a sense of community, a place to show pictures of grandchildren, ask for prayers, announce death of a loved one(pets included), etc. etc.

6 The Off Topic forum will be re-opened when and if we can adjust our policies so that they are clearer and it appears that it will work.

OK, please keep it civil. thoughts, suggestions, complaints?

 

[bluthart]

Thanks Steve - this makes more sense.:icon_thum

 

[TracyP]

Thanks Steve. Well put

 

[Glennbear]

I tend to agree with this staff member:

To me, a thread is in the political realm if it discusses any issue that involves our government decision making -- war, taxes, economy, voting, etc. In other words, issues like the economic stimulus package versus tax cuts should be prohibited and frankly, I think the Buy American issue is borderline... We may find some issues that relate to woodworking may get close -- e.g., discussions about the new Consumer Product Safety Information Act should be allowed because they impact the woodworking industry. It should be okay to talk about one's personal plight (some members have been laid off), but not to the extent that it is so-and-so's [insert political party] fault.

Having said that, I had a thread that was deleted on inaugaration day about how great it was that the USA once again had a peaceful change of leadership unlike some other nations which do not enjoy our democratic process. Apparently the moderator thought it was too political or the thread went sour at some point after my original post. I now know that in the interest of NCWW harmony to avoid anything of that nature but would hate to lose the off topic forum completely for the subjects you listed as acceptable.

So what is the off topic forum for? Well, they are meant to foster a sense of community, a place to show pictures of grandchildren, ask for prayers, announce death of a loved one(pets included), etc. etc

FWIW, my two cents worth :wsmile:

 

[ScottM]

Thank you. You covered all the bases.

 

[PChristy]

Thanks Steve for taking the time to clear this up for us:icon_thum I have in the past posted somethings that might have been border line - sorry if I have - I will try to keep a tight rein on it

 

[Kyle]

Clear as bell!

thanks.

 

[Douglas Robinson]

One other thing, Steve mentioned "So much staff time was being taken up by this that an individual post that was a veiled racist remark was totally missed."

Please understand that the moderators do not get anything for being moderators. There are a LOT of things that need to be taken care of on a regular basis. Upgrades, improvements, by-laws, incorporation issues, fixing holes, reading all the posts for content (moderating), etc. The "borderline" topics having taken up so much staff time that some of THESE issues are not getting done in the time frame they need to.

We have limited resources, please think before you post. READ the policies. We do not want to delete/close threads/posts. Most people here abide by the policies. If you have a topic and are unsure if it is acceptable send it to the staff as an inquiry before posting.

 

[flatheadfisher]

When humans gather, virtually or in 3D, there will always be disagreements. I like the virtual world because it allows me the opportunity to exchange ideas about a topic, such as woodworking, without having to deal with all the other issues that come up in 3D gatherings. In many forums I have frequented, these issues became such a problem that I quit visiting them. When catfishing and duck hunting forums have more threads about religion, politics, etc. than hunting and fishing, I get frustrated. If I wanted to talk politics, I would join a political forum. If I wanted to discuss religion online, I would find the appropriate online forum. I have enjoyed this forum because it has been almost exclusively about woodworking. I do enjoy reading about grandchildren, puppy dogs, and personal accomplishments that allow us to get to know each other better. But, I prefer to talk about controversial topics in other venues and talk woodworking here.

So, I have offered my opinion in support of the efforts of the mods. I am going back to see what cool new toys Woodwrangler has managed to purchase with his birthday money.

 

[jeff...]

Originally Posted by Staff Member

To me, a thread is in the political realm if it discusses any issue that involves our government decision making -- war, taxes, economy, voting, etc. In other words, issues like the economic stimulus package versus tax cuts should be prohibited and frankly, I think the Buy American issue is borderline... We may find some issues that relate to woodworking may get close -- e.g., discussions about the new Consumer Product Safety Information Act should be allowed because they impact the woodworking industry. It should be okay to talk about one's personal plight (some members have been laid off), but not to the extent that it is so-and-so's [insert political party] fault.

I really don't know where the thread went - but I can assure you my intent was NOT borderline. If you go back and read the opening post I think you can clearly see my intent. Frankly it upsets me for someone to assume my intent is something different than it was "borderline" I mean what the (insert 4 letter word here). Then take an action by closing and or deleting the thread. Why not ask me what my intent was - I'm an honest guy and will tell you the truth to be best I know how.

Steve look, I understand you and the staff's position, but my God... lighten up a bit ok? Many of the members and staff (if you want to draw a distinction between the two) are freaking stressed out by the current economic position the country is in. Like it or not this stress is going to be reflected in what we type. Closing a whole forum is a little extreme don't you think, or has the strees got the better of you at that time?

The only reason I am responding is because I've been a member for a long time, a lot of you are almost like family to me.

 

[JimmyC]

Well here I go, and nobody that has posted so far is probably going to agree with me, but there is trouble in Shangri La. You can all smile and wave,and nod with big grins on your face, but we have already lost one of the knowledgeable contributors and I'm sure more will follow. Yeah,yeah,yeah I know, no big loss to most of you but it is just the beginning of seperation. I doubt any of the naysayers will post on the thread for fear of being labelled, but they will not post as much as they did and that is not good, these were not trouble makers. But this seeming to be the age of McCarthyism, I am sure someone will condone them. I would be shocked if this post lasts throughout the afternoon before a bunch of moderators take on their high holiness and get rid of my post because it MAY eventually stir up some discussion.

I did not post on the outlawed threads because I knew what would happen eventually and after this thread is done I won't post anything in disagreement with the beautiful people. But this thread is just for that and I will take advantage of it. Just as alot of people don't like others who wear their opinions on their sleeves, there are people who don't others that hide behind false beliefs of everything being beautiful.

I have used this site to meet some really great people, and there are others that I could live without. I'm sure some of you feel the same way about me. But, before you say anything about my respect for the site, I know where I stand and how much I've supported this site and if everybody learned to walk the walk instead of talking the talk we'd all be much better.

"Let your conscience be your guide", I know I have, and I know that I go to bed every night and sleep well, DO YOU ?

Well, I'm off the soapbox now, and Shangri La is a little less sunny now.

Once again "Live well and let your conscience be your guide"

 

[rcflyer23]

+1 flatheadfisher

Thank you Steve for the site and clearing things up.

 

[Trent Mason]

I agree with the staff 100%. :icon_thum I've probably posted more off topic stuff than most, but none of it had to do with politics/religion/etc. This is not the place for that. One thing I've learned in my life about those topics is that everyone has their own opinion. I have mine, you have yours and they're probably different, so why argue about it. I don't even discuss these issues in person with people.

I'm a member of a few other forums and I rarely ever go to them anymore because all of the discussion is about politics/etc. That's one of the things that makes this site great (and my favorite place on the internet). People here, for the most part, put their differences aside and come together in fellowship with a love for woodworking as the common bond.

Great job staff. :notworthy: Sorry things got hectic, but that is human nature, we're not perfect.

Cheers, ccasion1

Trent

 

[WoodWrangler]

I don't take things too seriously. That's how I am. Some people sit on the other side of the fence and everything is “very” serious. A few rest in the middle somewhere. And so there-in lays the problem.

To Travis' point, which I've felt in truth in times past as well, outlines what I believe to be a larger part of the upheaval here as of late. The problem comes down to the written word, how we think we wrote it, and how the reader chooses to interpret it. Written word is not equal to the spoken word. The written word is in some ways more powerful but in many ways severely weaker. It's here, in the words, that the issues begin ... and its here, to Travis' point, that feathers get ruffled even among friends.

Several times in my professional/business life, I've written an email in an even tone -- at least to me -- only to have it read on the other end of the line as an arrogant attack or sarcastic smittering. Neither would have been the truth as my fingers put to screen my thoughts, but the words alone didn't do justice in communicating the tone.

And too, my first week with NCWW several years ago I was met with a "suggestion" from Papa Smurf that I learn to use the smiley's in my posts more often to help communicate my subtly sarcastic jokes and off-beat sense of humor. And that suggestion alone changed a LOT in how well I was able to communicate with my new iFriends. As silly as it seems, those little animations helped me communicate where words alone provided inadequate.

And now, in a close-knit group (by any internet forum measure), we've found ourselves warring among friends over words & interpretations. In the end, I hope all can maintain their composure and not stomp off in frustration, but rather try to understand where the other person is coming from and understand not everyone is going to get their way. There's a balance for sure, but that's only met with empathy and understanding from both parties involved.

 

[Mike Davis]

Travis,

I think it is more inexperience and 'knee jerk' reaction than attitude. I really believe the moderators are trying to do a good job and work for the community doing what they think is expected and the best they can.

But, they know less than Steve about human nature, good manners and kind spirited guidance. So, they sometimes come off as being heavy handed and overbearing.

I'm sure it is unintentional.

 

[Douglas Robinson]

I am a moderator. Historically, I have not moderated a lot of threads. I once moderated WoodWrangler because he misspelt a word that gave his post a VERY different meaning. Having said that I support my fellow moderators. They are trying to be fair. You learn pretty quickly that something that was innocent to you, is in fact offensive to someone else. BTW: People do complain. I do not think there any high holiness here.

As to the economy, unless the post has to do with how it effects buying or selling wood related products, or how it is effecting your job, why are you posting it here? You may be stressed or concerned, but there are other places to post it. BTW there IS a chat room here.

Religon has caused more problems here historically than the economy. My religous beliefs are different than most here, but I support your right to hold true to your beliefs. If you make a religous-oriented pen, sign scroll-saw project, etc., great post it and lets talk about it. If you make a statement that one religon is the only one, than expect to be moderated.

A lot of people have gotten to be great friends here. That is truly wonderful. Just because you are such good friends does not change the long standing policies. Please discuss the sensitive matters amongst yourselves. Phones still work, and as WoodWrangler stated, spoken word is a lot less likely to be misinterpreted.

"Knowledgeable contributors" have left before and knew ones have joined. It will happen again in the future. I am saddened when it happens, but that is life.

Before you post something overly critical, try walking a mile in the other person's shoes.

Lastly, one of the reasons so many people find NCWW to be sucha great site and to be so "friendly" is a direct result of the moderation.

 

[Keye]

To me email is the worst form of communication we have ever come up with and unfortunately these forums are somewhat like emails. It is very hard to insure your actual intent comes across.

I think Jeremy has once again hit the nail on the head ( I hear he uses a lot of nails in his work:rotflm. See what I mean:icon_thum.

More frequent use of the icons (smilies) would help a lot IMHO:icon_cheers.

 

[RayH]

Steve, and all the Moderators:

Thanks for the guidance and all the hard work. It's not easy keeping a site like this up, and running, and useful.:eusa_clap

Now can we get back to non-emotional stuff like the merits of various dust collection technologies?:gar-La;

Anyone know a local (Raleigh) source for the Porter Cable D-handle router bases?

Thanks,
Ray

 

[michaelgarner]

We love woodworking, we love our small area of the Internet known as NCWW, we love to encourage each other, to share our projects and design thoughts, to laugh at the silly things in life,, I don't know what happened. But lets just make some sawdust friends. Life is so short, and the world so turbulent to allow the unknowns of the world to spill into our hobby. Have a blessed day my friends.

 

[gator]

In general, I agree with the policies and the moderation policies of the site. I use the old saw about me being a visitor in someone else's home and acting (writing) accordingly. I know that this place is soon to become the outlet of a corporation and not privately owned but the thought is the same, would you say that if a visitor in someone's home?

One other forum has a slightly different slant on this. I'm not saying that it should be tried here or that it would even work here. WoodNet has "The Basement". Lots of stuff is discussed there and things get ugly, mean and nasty at times. BUT, and its a big BUT, everybody there knows what the basement is like and those of us that don't abide by such goings on, don't go there. Those that do go there know what to expect, leave it there, and don't carry it to the other forums on WoodNet. From the very few times I have visited there, it appears that there is but a small minority of total members that visit The Basement. In any gathering of people (and every gathering has them), those would be the ones classified as rowdy. Good people, but just have a rowdy personality.

The upside is twofold, it keeps members (visitors, posters, whatever you want to call them) loyal to the site and it keeps the type of threads we are discussing here in one place (The Basement) with the general knowledge of what to expect if you go there.

George