"B" Arbor from Arizona Shilouette

[ashley_phil]

Ok I finally got around to doing a bulk order of pen kits form Arizona. I didn't pay attention and two the kits I purchased require their "B" mandrel.

http://www.arizonasilhouette.com/Pen_Madrels.htm

Does anyone know if you can get these else where?

Also I have the "professional" mandrel from woodcraft:

http://www.woodcraft.com/product.aspx?ProductID=145997&FamilyID=1608

Anybody know if I can use the larger "B" Mandrel with my existing setup? I don't think the collet is big enough to accept it. I know I could go nuts and actually take it all apart and measure it, but I figure some of you will know the answer off the top of your head.

The other obvious questions is does anyone have an Arizona "B" mandrel set-up in their way?:rotflm:

 

[rcflyer23]

The only way I would think you could use it is if you could find a larger collet. To bad they don't say how big the 'B' Mandrel is. What the heck is up with having two different mandrels anyway. Geesh. You could also just turn them between centers if you didn't want to mess with the mandrel, just don't over tighten and flare the brass.

 

[ashley_phil]

The "B" mandrel is 0.291" vs A which is roughly 0.247" give or take.

I turned some bushings from the white plastic HDPE stuff I have, Delrin I think? That didn't seem to work though.

 

[rcflyer23]

I have tried turning between centers with the metal bushings and it was different... I couldn't get it tight enough to keep the blank from stopping, just had to use a very light touch. .291 vs .247 just ram it in the WC Pro mandrel collet.. You just need a bigger hammer.:gar-Bi

I don't know if WC has a bigger mandrel or not. I have the pro one like you which is the A size. Hmm. I don't know what to tell ya.

 

[ashley_phil]

yeah i've lived my life using the big hammer approach, but i was thinking of moving to a more productive type of approach.:rotflm:

 

[FredP]

some bushing kits require the B mandrel. you can make your own bushings to fit the A mandrel but you will like the B. it's thicker and deflects less giving you a better pen IMO. I prefer it to the A whenever I can. some kits will use either but you need the bushings for that kit. A or B plus the bushing number. most kits that use the larger tubes can use the B mandrel. I only buy the mandrel itself [no MT] and use it in my pin jaws on my chuck. seems to spin truer and I can adjust the length for the shorter length pens such as the sierra or wallstreet.

 

[rcflyer23]

Yeah I wouldn't use even a small hammer with the mandrel, wouldn't want to knock it out of round.

 

[ashley_phil]

well i got the "B" mandrel on order, we'll see how it goes.

i also told them they should check customer's orders and advise them if they are ordering kits that take 2 different mandrel types. i'm sure i'm not the only one that didn't even realize there were 2 sizes.

 

[rcflyer23]

Yeah you would think they would do some kind of check on that or at least have something pop up in the website, "Danger, Danger Will Robinson" Oh well. At least you have the mandrel coming and don't have to make something work.

 

[CaptnA]

I'm pretty sure the A is 7mm and the B is 8mm.
SOME places sell bushing for kits that take the B mandrel to fit an A mandrel. I'm 95% sure Berea does.
It gets confusing as all get out. The Carbera and the Atlas are the same pen kit, sold by different companies. There is more of the same, that is just one example that comes to mind.
Like FredP stated the B being larger should be less likely to flex.
Turning between centers alleviates the need for any mandrel and that is one less problem to lead to an out of round pen.

 

[ashley_phil]

Ok I was mildly annoyed with Arizona Shiloutte and ticked off at myself for making this mistake and having to get the "B" mandrel. So I made the following comment when I placed the order in their "Notes" field:

I recently ordered $ 150 worth of kits, bushings & bits. It would be nice
> if
> you could advise people prior to placing an order that the kits they are
> ordering require both the A & B Mandrel. I know I should have paid better
> attention but obviously I didn't. It'd be nice to look out for your
> customers and let them know what up front as a reminder.

To which I get the following email back from who I can only presume is the owner/order processor at Arizona. I think it's a one man show there but I don't know for sure.

Hi David,

I am looking out for my customers. The following statement is at the top of
each page of the pen kit images section:

Mandrel Sizes:
There are two different sizes of mandrels (shafts): the A mandrel and
the B mandrel. The A mandrel is the same as a 7mm mandrel and can be used
to turn kits from any of the kit suppliers. The B mandrel, however, is
larger in diameter and is used to turn some of the larger kits manufactured
only by Berea Hardwoods.

Knowing what mandrel is required when ordering kits from us is easy to
determine: If the bushing number has a letter A in it (20A) then the A
mandrel is required - if the bushing number has a letter B in it (16B) then
the B mandrel is required.



There are no pen kits that require both the A and B mandrel in order for a
kit to be made. Some kits are able to be made on the A mandrel as well as
on the B mandrel - the correct bushings being necessary.

Now if my customers will take the time to read the information presented to
them .... :>)

What a turkey. I just don't get why you'd berate a customer with a complaint who just spent another $ 30 with your company. Here's what I sent him back:

Well my name is Phil. But thanks for responding to my question. No doubt I checked your site and found the text you referenced, clearly I overlooked it.

You're terse response is very disappointing to me. Do you realize that roughly 2% of people actually take the time to complain to a company? That means for each person that does complain 49 others do not and simply leave disappointed and likely to complain and share their experience with others.

Your services and products came highly recommended to me, but I can assure you your website is one of the most difficult I've ever had the pleasure to try to navigate, much less actually make a purchase from. If so many of my friends hadn't recommended you, there's no way I'd have had the trust to order from you.

The suggestion I made is still a valid one, you could program your system to give customer's a head's up at the time of ordering that they are ordering kits which require 2 mandrels. Keep in mind that I submitted my complaint with an order for an additional $ 30. If I had taken the time to complain to you prior to making the purchase and you'd responded as you did below. I'd certainly have searched/scoured the internet for an alternative source for "B" sized mandrels.

I don't know that I'll buy anything from you aga in. Your kits are nice and well priced. But your customer service is suspect to say the least.

Best regards,

Phil Ashley

So my question to anyone who's wasted their time to read all of this. I am just nuts for thinking his email response is rude? I know we had issues with the group buy before, maybe he just has it out for guys named Phil:rotflm:

 

[rcflyer23]

You were kind. I would have taken that worse. I believe it is a one man show. He is supposedly very repsected in the pen community but like you I agree his website is horrible and even though he is highly recommended I have yet to order from him because I just get a wierd feeling and based off of his response he just sealed the deal for me, I will not be ordering from him. I'll pay a couple bucks more to get it local or from another site. Shoot you can buy the stuff direct from Berea Hardwoods. You are so correct on you comment about complaints. My companies biggest marketing return comes from word of mouth and I can tell you that a complaint hurts 10x as much as a compliment.

 

[MikeL]

Phil, sorry that you had an off-putting experience with them. I order all of my kits through Arizona Silhouette and have always had accurate and speedy service. I do agree that their website is very awkward.

 

[ErnieM]

Phil,

May I respectfully disagree? I've never made a pen, and I've never been on this person's web-site. However, it seems that he did include the necessary information on the web-site. You admit that you didn't read it. Your mistake, not his. Then you accused him of not looking out for his customers. That doesn't strike me as being fair. I agree with Kevin that a complaint hurts 10x more than a compliment helps. All the more important to make sure our complaints are truly justified.

Just my 2 cents.

Ernie

 

[FredP]

Phil,

May I respectfully disagree? I've never made a pen, and I've never been on this person's web-site. However, it seems that he did include the necessary information on the web-site. You admit that you didn't read it. Your mistake, not his. Then you accused him of not looking out for his customers. That doesn't strike me as being fair. I agree with Kevin that a complaint hurts 10x more than a compliment helps. All the more important to make sure our complaints are truly justified.

Just my 2 cents.

Ernie

I have to agree with ernie. I do turn pens and do use AS as a supplier. I have always had great service and good prices from them. how is he suposed to know that you dont already have a "B" mandrel or bushings for a particular pen? He sells thousands of kits to the public every day. it is a one man show. he takes the orders packs them [large and small] and gets them sent. not everyone buys bushings and bits on every order. No offence intended Phil but I think you are being a little unfair.

 

[ashley_phil]

Ok his repsonse that I should have read the website is fine, I get that. You want to be a grouchy old man, have at it.

His not taking the time to cut and paste the correct name in his response? That just indicates to me a lack of concern.

Now yes he has a disclaimer on every page as he said in his response, only one of the many annoying aspects of his site, there are pages of crap to scroll through before you can get to what you're looking at.

But what really irks me is he can't take a minute to empathize with a now new repeat customer? He has to take a dig at me the customer. I can see his side and no doubt have wanted to tear into "idiot" customers before, but I mean it isn't like I was requesting he make it up to me by giving me a mandrel or insisting he take my "un-usable" to me pen kits back. Over half $ 150 of my order was of no use to me w/o the "B" mandrel, obviously I took responsibility for my error and ordered the additional Mandrel.

I provided him with what I consider valuable feedback, that he could advise customers when they order that they are ordering kits which require both the "A" & "B" mandrels. And that woudl be a valuable tool for the customer. Since I was a first time customer, I would have had the choice to select a different set of kits or spend the extra $ 30 on the "B" mandrel.

I didn't ask him to make it up to me in anyway because it was MY MISTAKE! He could have been considerate in his reply or at least got my name right.

 

[MikeL]

Phil, after reading your initial feedback, I know that I would have taken the accusation of not looking out for my customers as a low blow. This is not to say that I think he was right in poking back. At this point the matter seems like it has become very personal, and I don't think there is anything I can add to what's already been said here that will help the situation.

I would like to say to any prospective customers reading this thread, that I would still highly recommend Arizona Silhouette as a supplier for pen makers. While his website isn't the best, it gets the job done. He also has a great video on pen making. My 2 cents.

 

[ashley_phil]

Phil, after reading your initial feedback, I know that I would have taken the accusation of not looking out for my customers as a low blow. This is not to say that I think he was right in poking back. At this point the matter seems like it has become very personal, and I don't think there is anything I can add to what's already been said here that will help the situation.

I would like to say to any prospective customers reading this thread, that I would still highly recommend Arizona Silhouette as a supplier for pen makers. While his website isn't the best, it gets the job done. He also has a great video on pen making. My 2 cents.

I'd agree it'd be a low blow if it wasn't accompanied with a follow-up order, just a random complaint. But I was providing genuine feedback with a follow-up order.

Without a doubt he has good products at a fair price. My order arrived well packed an accurate. According to emails he's already shipped my mandrel so I can't dispute that. I will say his terse response is irrating.

 

[rcflyer23]

I think one thing that everyone needs to keep in mind is the guy is running a business you can't take it personally. I know you do though, I would/do. If I took offense to everytime a customer called a complained about our website I would go insane and feel like a total idiot. There have been several occasions where a customer called and made a complaint/comment about the site and you kind of look at it and go DOH why didn't I think about that.

I can say from the side of the website manager and no offense to Phil, people don't read, we put disclaimers all over our site about things and even change the colors to highlight the fact that hey this is a disclaimer and people still call in complaining about I didn't see such and such on the website, etc.

I can also say that if someone from here had responded to a customer in the fashion that happened here there would be a discussion on customer service with that person. Customer Service is what sets us apart from the rest of the pack.

I know he has good products and he has great prices but from this response to Phil I will not order from him. I can guaruntee that Phil is not the first person to call or write about this exact issue. As far as him not knowing if the customer has a B mandrel or not shouldn't stop him from his shopping cart doing a check and at least reminding the customer that they have or at the very least putting another Disclaimer on his check out page before you submit. Ofcourse that goes back to my earlier point people still don't read but you stand a better chance of catching more people and reducing the number of complaints.

I am sure the guy gets that all the time and probably gets fed up with explaining it to people but it still doesn't excuse his response and to Phil's point the guy didn't even get his name right. I think ultimately this line from them is what did it for me

"Now if my customers will take the time to read the information presented to them .... :>)"

My response is to make sure that the information is presented/Highlighted and repeated.

Sorry I just get real irritated with people who have a low sense of customer service in situations like this. I mean Phil ordered the mandrel and then commented on it, its not like he was trying to get them to cough up a mandrel.

I guess its just a touch situation. I don't know. I'm done now. I think.. I probably didn't make any sense so just forget I said anything....

:dontknow::icon_scra

 

[ashley_phil]

I think you nailed my sentiments exactly Kevin.