Biscuits , Frames and Panels *MORE PROGRESS (and pictures)*

[Kicbak]

Re: Biscuits , Frames and Panels

Looking good!

I really love biscuits for the dust collection. Hardly makes any dust at all. I recently built my aquarium stand and I used the metal corner brackets to attach the top.

Similar to this

That way I can take the top off easily if I need to move it since the top was larger then the base and that was easier then cutting the door frame:gar-Bi

As far as painting, I would do it after since it should stick to the glue. If you were planning on some sort of stain or floating panels I would paint/stain before glue up.
Wes

 

[FredP]

Re: Biscuits , Frames and Panels

I love my lamello! simply cut slots on the sides move the fence 1" and slot the top. if that doesnt work with your biskit maker you could use dowels with points.:icon_thum I never turn off the cutter with the blade buried in wood. lock the trigger and comence to makin biskits! when done allow to cool before serving.....:rotflm:

 

[FredP]

Re: Biscuits , Frames and Panels

BTW if you are adding edge banding to the top with bisqits then adding a routered edge be sure to allow some extra width on the band. them biskits look terrible when you route through half of them! DAMHIKT!:gar-La;

 

[McRabbet]

Re: Biscuits , Frames and Panels - Part 2

Bas, what is the top made from? If it is glued up hardwood stock, then you should use the corner blocks and include slotted holes so the top can expand or contract as moisture content changes a little over the seasons. It will split if you use biscuits all around. If on the other hand it is plywood or MDF, then the biscuits will work. I'd opt for the corner block method with either type of top material in case you ever need to take it off. Just make sure the screws aren't too long!!

 

[Bas]

Re: Biscuits , Frames and Panels

I really love biscuits for the dust collection. Hardly makes any dust at all. I recently built my aquarium stand and I used the metal corner brackets to attach the top.

Wes

I have my biscuit joiner hooked up to the shop vac, and I have practically no dust. In fact, the air flow sucks the piece against the fence. Those metal corner brackets are a pretty good idea, I actually have some of those, I use those to make sure my drawers are square during glue-up.

I love my lamello! simply cut slots on the sides move the fence 1" and slot the top. if that doesnt work with your biskit maker you could use dowels with points.:icon_thum

Dowels would certainly work, they're basically cylindrical biscuits! I can use the drill press, but the top is somewhat unwieldy. Maybe if used my router to cut the holes instead, hmmmm, I smell a jig.

Bas, what is the top made from? If it is glued up hardwood stock, then you should use the corner blocks and include slotted holes so the top can expand or contract as moisture content changes a little over the seasons. It will split if you use biscuits all around. If on the other hand it is plywood or MDF, then the biscuits will work. I'd opt for the corner block method with either type of top material in case you ever need to take it off. Just make sure the screws aren't too long!!

It's plywood with an edge of poplar. I was going to make it out of solid poplar at first (more biscuits!!!), but since I'm painting it, I thought, why not go with ordinary plywood? The main thing I'm concerned about is strength. This will be a heavy cabinet, and it will be lifted from the top. I'd need to put a fair number of screws in to make sure it won't come apart.
But, making it removable as Wes suggested as well is not a bad idea. Maybe I'll use metal brackets in the corners and screw blocks in the center.

BTW if you are adding edge banding to the top with bisqits then adding a routered edge be sure to allow some extra width on the band. them biskits look terrible when you route through half of them! DAMHIKT!:gar-La;

Good point! I used 1 1/2" edge banding, which I think will be enough. But, that's dumb luck. I had a strip of poplar lying around, and basically worked off those dimensions. Good to know sometimes chance works in my favor!


Great advice everyone - thanks!

 

[Jeff]

Re: Biscuits , Frames and Panels

That's a very nice, tidy job. Congrats. Looks like a nice home for "big bird & associates". It's amusing that you're housing a water and oil mix together.

I'm also having fun and learning a bit with my own prototype frame & panel blanket chest construction. I recently cut a few tenons using my first ever stacked dado set instead of a homemade tenoning jig. The fit and crispness all around was impressive. I'll soon start the real deal.

Your experience and member comments also are informative.

 

[Travis Porter]

Re: Biscuits , Frames and Panels

they dont come with them but are available at exta cost.:gar-La; I chose to do my own setup then make my own setup blocks for use in the future.:icon_thum I'm too cheep [spelled thrifty] to spend the money on a piece of plastic!:no:

So how do you like the lock miter Fred?

How would you compare it to a glue joint or drawer joint bit?

 

[Steve W]

Re: Biscuits , Frames and Panels

Biscuits work great for carcases, that's for sure, and I've used them on face frames. The trick is to make sure you're referencing from the same side of each mating part. I had a couple of face frames where I messed this up and the "good" side wound up with one piece proud of the other! Had to belt-sand it into oblivion to get the two pieces to look right.

Bas, I would use some sort of epoxy paint on the interior where the catbox is going. At least from my experience, when their box is inside an enclosure, they tend to no longer care about their aim:elvis: and they pee on the sides of the enclosure. Obviously, you don't want this to soak into the wood or things will get smelly in a hurry!

The project does look real nice!

:kermit: Steve

 

[FredP]

Re: Biscuits , Frames and Panels

So how do you like the lock miter Fred?

How would you compare it to a glue joint or drawer joint bit?

it works ok but as i said is a little tricky to get set right. these bits are different animals. your fence and table material must be hard. first time i used the LM bit i added a temporary ZC fence to the router table. it was 1/4" ply and was somewhat soft. the mitered piece made a grove in the temp fence that got deeper with each pass and made for ill fitting corners. tried plexiglass and all was better. drawer lock bits are much easier to use but leave endgrain showing. my second attempt worked pretty good exept I got greedy and decided to lock miter all six sides. this added more complication to the process! problem with that idea was all sides are glued at once and if you get squeese out in the box you dont know it till its an ugly mess. scraping glue from the inside of a box aint fun.:no: once I got it set i made some setup blocks for next time. there was also some tearout to deal with but it was minimal and a backup piece cures that. all in all I doubt i will replace it when it gets dull. cutting keys in mitered joints is easier and probly stronger too.

fred

 

[Bas]

Re: Biscuits , Frames and Panels - Part 2

The glue-up of the carcass went remarkably well. I used plastic resin glue instead of regular yellow glue to make sure I'd have enough time to smear some stuff on all sixty biscuits and clamp it up before it sets. Mixing takes only a couple of minutes, and it is SO MUCH EASIER to get things lined up and square when you're not in panic rush mode.


Believe it or not, but I actually should have added a few more clamps, there is a tiny gap between some of the panels. Since I'm painting it, this is completely irrelevant, but I'm learning quite a bit from this project. Like how important it is to clean up the squeeze-out right away, and not wait until it's rock hard. That's the kind of stuff they gloss over on TV (except on WoodWorks :notworthy

I've also made quite a bit of progress on the pull-out shelf that will hold the kitty litter box. I discovered I had several pieces of 3/4" AC plywood that were 2"-6" too narrow. I could have gone and bought another sheet of course, but space in the shop is limited. I did have a nice piece of oak plywood available, but I didn't want to use it since it was going to be painted. So, change of plans, the shelf will be a natural finish instead, should make a nice contrast with the white carcass. Three or four coats of polyurethane and a little wax should be enough protection. I had some oak strips left over for the edge.


Since a miter joint isn't very strong, I decided to add...a biscuit! The PC biscuit joiner has a 2" blade for face frame biscuits that were just small enough.


Looks like a pretty good fit!


To attach the trim to the plywood, I used, yup, more biscuits. I'm definitely getting faster at cutting the slots. It makes alignment so much easier during glue-up.


Final dryfit...


and the glue-up. More plastic resin glue.


I need to get some more pipe clamps, I've underestimated their power and convenience. The bar clamps are just not strong enough to really crank down, they flex far too easily. The JET cabinet clamps are amazing, I vow to buy another set every year for the next 10 years or so.

Next stage - mechanics. I need to attach the doors, install the undermount rails for the shelf, and attach the top. Then disassemble everything and put on the finish.

 

[Canuck]

Re: Biscuits , Frames and Panels *UPDATE*

Super progress Bas!!!!:wsmile:

What is the setup time using the plastic resin glue?

(Oh ya. Lowes still have their 24" K-bodies reduced to $30 a piece!:wink_smil)

Thanks for the progress pics a 'play-by-play'!

Wayne

 

[Bas]

Re: Biscuits , Frames and Panels *UPDATE*

What is the setup time using the plastic resin glue?

It's pretty long. Temperature plays a big factor, my shop is ~70 degrees (basement), so keep that in mind.

- Pot life is a 2-3 hours. Just to experiment, I took some glue that had been sitting for almost four hours (it was very thick at this point), slathered some on a scrap piece of poplar, and clamped a second piece on top. I tried to chisel it apart after it cured, and the two pieces separated easily - the wood split . The glue bond remained intact.
- Exposed (i.e. brushed on to the surface), the glue starts to set after roughly 30 minutes. At least, it stops being tacky, so I assume that's what that means.
- Covered, i.e. if you put the tenon into the mortise, the glue doesn't set until roughly 2 hours. I made a test biscuit joint, and after more than an hour I clamped it and saw squeezeout. So it was still liquid at that point.
- Clamp time is 12+ hours, even longer when it's cold. For safety, I'm clamping for almost a full day.

I think you can safely take two hours for the glue-up, then spend another hour or so fiddling with the clamps and making adjustments. If it's colder, probably even longer than that.

 

[Canuck]

Re: Biscuits , Frames and Panels *UPDATE*

Good info!!!!:wsmile:

Thanks a lot Bas. I will have to try it out!

Wayne

 

[LeeNC]

Re: Biscuits , Frames and Panels

Great progress there, Bas!!!!!:wsmile::wsmile:

One thing I've seen Nahm do was use a slot cutter in the router and cut a continuous slot in the edge of carcase, then cut biscuit slots in the faceframe. That way you can use the biscuits in the faceframe and fit it to the continuous slot in carcase. (I hope I explained this right!:wsad
That stand is going to make the cage look real good!!!!:eusa_danc

Wayne

I used a Frued biscuit slot cutter to do just that. Worked relay well. It also worked well in the router table for the smaller pieces. At $40, much cheeper than the dedicated biscuit cutter. The only thing you loose is the ability to cut the slots in the middle of a large panel or board. ie adding a shelf to a case. I do not think that I would use biscuits to do that anyway. The other reason I got the Frued was that I could buy other slot cutters later.
Lee

 

[sapwood]

Re: Biscuits , Frames and Panels *UPDATE*

Good progress and a great tip on the resin glue :widea:
I just finished a 2'x2' plywood box using biscuits . . . love 'em :icon_thum
But I was in total panic trying to get everything assembled as the Tite Bond I hardened

Roger

 

[TracyP]

Re: Biscuits , Frames and Panels *UPDATE*

Great progress Bas. I have yet to use my biscuit joiner. But the last steps of the current project require biscuits. Your project looks great.

 

[Bas]

Re: Biscuits , Frames and Panels *UPDATE*

But I was in total panic trying to get everything assembled as the Tite Bond I hardened

Yup, and when in panic mode, Glue-Up equals Screw-Up. :BangHead:
The only downside to plastic resin glue is that you have to gauge how much to mix. You don't want too little, or you're mixing twice, but you don't want too much either, because that costs money! :gar-Bi

BTW, I bought the stuff at Ace Hardware, it was $7 or $8 I think, very affordable.

 

[BobcatBob]

Re: Biscuits , Frames and Panels *UPDATE*

Good progress and a great tip on the resin glue :widea:
I just finished a 2'x2' plywood box using biscuits . . . love 'em :icon_thum
But I was in total panic trying to get everything assembled as the Tite Bond I hardened

Roger

Tight Bond also make an Extended glue which gives you more open time. Even with that though, you have to hurry along, but not in panic mode. :gar-La;

 

[Jeff]

Re: Biscuits , Frames and Panels *UPDATE*

Titebond III, available at Lowe's, is their Extended glue. You can find the open time specs, etc. and compare them with their other glues at the Titebond website. I think that the open time is about 10 minutes directly exposed to air and about 20-25 minutes in a confined space.

<http://www.titebond.com/WNTitebondIIITB.asp>

 

[Glennbear]

Re: Biscuits , Frames and Panels *UPDATE*

It's pretty long. Temperature plays a big factor, my shop is ~70 degrees (basement), so keep that in mind.

- Pot life is a 2-3 hours. Just to experiment, I took some glue that had been sitting for almost four hours (it was very thick at this point), slathered some on a scrap piece of poplar, and clamped a second piece on top. I tried to chisel it apart after it cured, and the two pieces separated easily - the wood split . The glue bond remained intact.
- Exposed (i.e. brushed on to the surface), the glue starts to set after roughly 30 minutes. At least, it stops being tacky, so I assume that's what that means.
- Covered, i.e. if you put the tenon into the mortise, the glue doesn't set until roughly 2 hours. I made a test biscuit joint, and after more than an hour I clamped it and saw squeezeout. So it was still liquid at that point.
- Clamp time is 12+ hours, even longer when it's cold. For safety, I'm clamping for almost a full day.

I think you can safely take two hours for the glue-up, then spend another hour or so fiddling with the clamps and making adjustments. If it's colder, probably even longer than that.

Thanks for the comprehensive testing data on PR glue, When I start making my bed I forsee long open time being helpful. I recently bought a bunch of steel bar clamps in long lengths from CL and was starting to question my decision because of their hefty weight. Your experience with the other style clamps validates my purchase and decision to stick with pipe clamps and these steel monsters :gar-Bi Your combination avian/feline furniture is definitely impressive in design.