Adze, to scrub plane to...?

[Hill]

Was wondering if any of you plane guys might be able to enlighten me as to the sequence they used in earlier WW'ing to work a piece down to it's final thickness. I'm probably wrong, but I was thinking maybe along the lines of adze to remove the bigger chunks, then on to the scrub for the leveling process, but what was used after the scrub?...Jack?
And where does the Fore plane come in to this sequence?

Thanks a bunch:gar-Bi

 

[froglips]

Well, this is a classic case of "depends". Here is how I follow the process, YMMV.

An adze is one roughing tool, but a well split log (using a froe) may not need an adze.

The use of a scrub plane is hotly debated. Some say its original use was for cutting edges of framing lumber to width more than surfacing wood.

I'm in that camp. The sole is too short to create any meaningful flatness and the width of the iron is so narrow you are in for a lot of work.

I'd say from a split or adze surface, you go to a Jack plane. Any plane with a wide open mouth and a curved iron (but not as curved as in a Scrub) works here. This plane takes a very rough board down to a reasonably flat board, as flat as the length of plane can create.

From here, its Jointer plane with a tighter mouth and less curved blade to truly flatten the board.

Lastly a smoothing plane with as tight a mouth as you can afford to have and a very gently curved iron puts the final surface (unless scraping or sanding is part of your finishing plans).

Hope that helps.

Jim

 

[CarvedTones]

I would go with a broad axe over the adze if I was trying to get it flat enough to plane next. An adze (in my hands anyway) has a steeper angle of attack. A low angle on an adze puts my knees or toes (depending on what size adze) in danger.

 

[AAAndrew]

What Jim said. If the wood is riven, i.e. split out from the log, then you don't need the adze. We can get into all kinds of "discussions" on names and types of planes, but if we're just going back as far as planes go, then the idea is that regardelss of what you call them, you go from the cruder to the finer.

The adze or broad axe are just unbounded blades. Chisels are the same but just set at a different angle to work.

The plane is a bounded edge that has more control of cut. The wider the mouth and deeper the blade the less control but the more material that can be removed. The whole idea when working with hand tools is to get from rough to smooth with the least number of steps and least amount of work, and it can be REAL work while getting to the level of flatness and finish appropriate to the use. Timbers for the rafters of the local nobleman were worked to a very different level of fit and finish then the timbers for a barn. And timbers for building were worked to a very different fit and finish than lumber for furniture. You get the idea.

So, as Jim says, it depends. It depends on the time period, the purpose and who was doing it.

I personally like to work from a big-mouthed #6 I have down to fine finish plane, either a #4 or my petite #3 that cuts so sweetly. If you need flat, then a joiner (jointer) plane will be in there somewhere. I like the #6 because I'm not a small person and I like a plane with some heft as I take deep cuts. It all depends, too, on how rough is rough. If I was going from a deeply chunked board from an adze, I'd agree with Andy and got to a broad axe if I had one.

Of course, if you're having to rely on an adze to bring your lumber down to thickness, it sounds like either you're working in a period or place where planes aren't that common, or your lumber is really for construction rather than furniture. In that case, the adze, in the right hands, could be the final tool needed.

 

[CarvedTones]

The adze or broad axe are just unbounded blades.

Well, yes, but I can keep the flat face of the broad axe in contact with the surface and use it in more of a planing than chopping motion. An adze can be worked that way also, but with a broad axe you can more easily orient the blade so you aren't swinging it toward yourself. The danger of planing style strokes with either one is that you will continue pushing the blade past the work piece.

I definitely agree about riving. A "real" froe will be under the tree this year (I put it on my list and I saw the box on my porch one day ). I made one out of an old mower blade and it works fine on wood that splits well, but if it needs torque to stay on course the bolt on handle has too much play.

 

[SSuther]

All of the above advice is good, but one question to considered is what is the original thickness of the wood you start with versus what you want the final thickness to be. Scrub or jack planes can move a lot of wood and fill the floor with shavings. However, once you have on face relatively flat, you might consider resawing to rough width and end up with more than one useable board. A well sharpened coarse rip saw can do this without wasting so much nice wood and the total amount of effort would be no more than scrubbing off a lot of wood with the planes. Of course, a good wide blade on a band saw will do a quick job of resawing, too.

 

[willarda]

I don't think an adze would have been commonly used to dimension lumber for furniture making. Generally, the lumber would have come from a pit saw mill and already have some rough dimension. An adze or an axe would be more commonly used for rough dimensioning lumber for constructon purposes or anytime a serious amount of wood needed to be removed.

For rough lumber, a scrub plane is tremendous. I routinely use my scrub plane to remove lots of wood when dimensioning by hand. I do this for seat blanks for chair making. I also do this for removing twist in lumber before I put it throuigh a planer--saves lots of time, effort and lumber this way. Although the scrub plane has a smallish footprint, it is admirably suited for its job. It is not a flattening tool. OTOH, I use it to take the lumber down to a level profile and I do this by careful use of the plane. You can plane heavy or light with a scrub plane. Generally you will plane across the grain up to 45 degrees to the grain direction, so you get really excellent shavings, but not a lot of tearout.

I generally follow the scrub with a jack plane. One of my jacks has a heavily cambered or crowned blade, but not so much as a scrub and way more than my smoother. With a tight mouth on the jack I can start going with the grain to takie out the ripples from the scrub plane and bring the board to preliminary flatness. After that I will come in with one of the longer bench planes (try, fore, jointer, depending on the piece of stock) to flatten and smooth. Finally, I focus on smoothing with my 4 1/2 LN.

This whole process is fairly quick and until you have gone through it a couple of times, the uninititated will not realize how efficient this scheme is.

If you are unsure as to the use of a scrub plane, just read the info on it in one of the early Stanley catalogs. The plane is not designed to cut with the grain, and if you used it cross grain on narrower lumber, you would have a lot of tear out on each long edge. I am sure that people have used it this way, but I can not see how it would have been designed for this purpose.

 

[Hill]

I guess I was just wondering the process that would've been used for making dimensional lumber/boards into what turns out as stock for furniture. Pit saw to rip saw to plane is kinda the process I think of, but I'm sure there's more involved in between. For some reason, I kept thinking that planes are kinda like sand paper. You start with the roughest to take off more material and then proceed to a fine -finish plane and on and on til you get the desired finish and dimension. As far as the adze goes, I tend to think of shipbuilders and flooring boards.
Thanks for the info :icon_thum

 

[froglips]

Ah, now we have a glimpse into your evil masterplane

Comparing planes to sandpaper is a bit misleading. Bench planes are used to flatten (and to some extent dimension) and smooth the wood. But, mostly, they flatten.

Yes, the smoothing plane can put a fantastic finish, but you can find plenty of historical evidence that scrapers or abrasives were used before applying finish. These include sharkskin! A planed surface will take finish differently than a scraped and differently than an abrasive prepared board.

I'd also like to mention something that blew my mind (Thanks again Adam!). In 18th century hand tool work, they did as little work as possible. Almost none of the interior parts were more than hit with a jack plane. They focus on the show surfaces.

I think today, with the machinery mantra of joint a face, then plane to thickness is misleading to hand tool work. This level of precision of flat and parallel is really difficult to achieve with hand tools. I have come to understand that its a wasted exercise. If the non-show surface lays flat enough to work on the show side, you are done.

Anyhoo, just had my afternoon coffee and felt chatty!

As you can tell, this is a topic many of us enjoy.

Jim

 

[CarvedTones]

Jim,

Don't tell anyone, but when I turn spindles, I only make the outside round...:rotflm::rotflm:

You make a good point. I know a lot of folks won't use a board with a cosmetic defect on either face, even if one will be well hidden.

 

[Mike Davis]

Geeeze Andy!

You could have saved me so much work! :rotflm:

 

[Hill]

What was the guys name that used to do the articles on primitive tools and work in popular woodworking?...I want to say his name was Adam, but not sure. Used to like reading about his projects each time PW come in the mail.

 

[AAAndrew]

If you ever get a chance, take a look inside the carcase of an 18th century chest. Pull out the drawers and shine a flashlight in and most likely you will see a pretty rough interior. These guys were building this stuff for a living and there was no economic reason to spend time finishing up the surface of the inside when it would never be seen. That was wasted time.

With modern machines, it makes sense to finish both faces because of the way the machines work. With hand tools, the way you work is different and you find as many ways of cutting corners (so to speak) as you can.

And there was a time when the adze was used for making furniture, but that was only before the invention of the plane and saw, which was pretty darn early as far as I remember.

Of course if you look at these couple of videos (make some popcorn first, they're fun) maybe you'd use the broad ax first, then the adze. Makes sense to me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j506cXGvOPg
then the fine adze work
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TluoK-MRWpY

And just because it's so much fun to watch, the crazy Japanese master craftsman hewing beams his traditional way in bare feet.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ueIB0h4SzHc&NR=1

 

[froglips]

You speak of the great Adam Cherubini. He wrote the Arts & Mysteries column.

Jerome Bias and I took his class on 18th Century Tools and Techniques back in March.

Popular Woodworking put together a compilation of all his articles on CD. Highly recommended if you don't have the printed copies.

Jim

What was the guys name that used to do the articles on primitive tools and work in popular woodworking?...I want to say his name was Adam, but not sure. Used to like reading about his projects each time PW come in the mail.

 

[CarvedTones]

One point of clarification - even though it is referred to as a broad "axe", the type I find most useful is really more hatchet sized and often used with your non dominant hand holding a rough piece of wood on a chopping block in front of you while you work one side of the wood with the broad axe, keeping the flat of the unbeveled face in contact with the wood as much as possible.