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I think only you can answer that question. However; you don't need a 200+ dollar dovetail saw to cut wood. There are many wwkrs out there who use century old saws to cut stellar dovetails. So what do I have? Well, I spent a little over a hundred for a Adria saw mainly because that is what I wanted. Did I need to spend that much, probably not but again, it is what I wanted. And, I didn't want to have to joint, file, etc etc. an old saw just to get it where I could cut wood with it. So I let the professionals do it for me. Keep your eyes out on this and other forums for a used one. I have read the Veritas is a good saw but leaves a lot to be desired in the looks catagory. There are a lot of guys who are saw nuts and most likely someone will have one all ready to cut and it won't cost a arm & leg.
Mike
Mike
It's that age old question:
Do I have more time or more money?
More time then buy any saw and learn to sharpen it, eventually you may decide to buy a certain new saw for one reason or another.
More money then get the big name hand made finely tuned dovetail saw of your dreams and let everybody fawn over it.
Either way you still have to learn to use it.
and it will need sharpening if you use it.
Do I have more time or more money?
More time then buy any saw and learn to sharpen it, eventually you may decide to buy a certain new saw for one reason or another.
More money then get the big name hand made finely tuned dovetail saw of your dreams and let everybody fawn over it.
Either way you still have to learn to use it.
and it will need sharpening if you use it.
I have a little dovetail saw that I got a while back (can't remember how long or where,I know I pd about 19 bucks for it,)but it cuts the prettiest dovetail you could want,plus other cuts.(including fingers)OUCH. :gar-Cr I don't believe a high dollar saw can cut any better. :no:
David,
Try the Veritas dovetail saw, all of the reports on it say that it has the same feel and handles just like the L-N ant about half the cost.
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=61974&cat=1,42884
Try the Veritas dovetail saw, all of the reports on it say that it has the same feel and handles just like the L-N ant about half the cost.
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=61974&cat=1,42884
Without knowing what your plans are, I believe the new saws are worth the money.
You get saws that come ready to use. Also, some now include progressive pitch teeth, which may or may not be an improvement.
You'd find, if you can get your hands on a few different makes, is they each feel differently in your hand. So many variables come into play, what feels good to one person is torture to another.
If you are looking to learn, I'd suggest one of the straight handled "gents" saws you see for around $19.99 Those let you "cut your teeth" (har har) and the handles are less painful when compared to the closed handled saws from the likes of Crown or Lynx.
The Lee Valley Veritas saw is probably the best bang for the buck if you want a really good new saw.
Gramercy (Tools for Working Wood) makes a great saw, as do Wenzloff, Cherubini, Lie-Nielsen and more. The big names like Arida, Crown, PAX, Thomas Flynn etc are mass produced and won't have the refinement of the custom makers.
Jim
You get saws that come ready to use. Also, some now include progressive pitch teeth, which may or may not be an improvement.
You'd find, if you can get your hands on a few different makes, is they each feel differently in your hand. So many variables come into play, what feels good to one person is torture to another.
If you are looking to learn, I'd suggest one of the straight handled "gents" saws you see for around $19.99 Those let you "cut your teeth" (har har) and the handles are less painful when compared to the closed handled saws from the likes of Crown or Lynx.
The Lee Valley Veritas saw is probably the best bang for the buck if you want a really good new saw.
Gramercy (Tools for Working Wood) makes a great saw, as do Wenzloff, Cherubini, Lie-Nielsen and more. The big names like Arida, Crown, PAX, Thomas Flynn etc are mass produced and won't have the refinement of the custom makers.
Jim
If it is all about quality of cut and it doesn't have to be a Western saw, look at the Zeta blades from Tashiro hardware. They are a comlpetely different mindset, though. They are disposable blades (though it will likely be many years before you "use up" a dovetail blade) and come razor sharp.
I also have a gents saw and second that recommendation.
A link:
http://www.tashirohardware.com/Tashiros_Hardware_LLC/saw_blades.html
I also have a gents saw and second that recommendation.
A link:
http://www.tashirohardware.com/Tashiros_Hardware_LLC/saw_blades.html
I bought the Veritas Dovetail saw (the "ugly" one), and I've been pretty happy with it. But, I'm pretty much starting out and really have nothing to compare it to. For the price, I would think it can't be beat.
It did take me some time to figure out the right angle against the wood to use the saw efficiently (steeper than I naturally went for). I've read that others think that the teeth are a bit aggressive that way.
It did take me some time to figure out the right angle against the wood to use the saw efficiently (steeper than I naturally went for). I've read that others think that the teeth are a bit aggressive that way.
I have had a cheap gents type saw for years that I patiently practiced dovetails with. I actually got quite good at it. Then an opportunity arose to buy a slightly used LN dovetail saw for a good price so I snatched it up thinking that I would make a quantum leap in ability. This turned out to be a good ways from reality. First of all the LN was hard to start in a cut, secondly, once it takes its path there is no way you will steer it back. Apparently, since the cheap saw was not as finely set, and filed for crosscut, I had come to rely on its ability to correct the cut in mid stream and also I learned to compensate for for its sloppiness by sawing further from the line.
That said, I have to say that once I started to focus on sawing straight (and closer to the line), the LN is now much friendlier and I find myself spending less time doing a better job.
I bet, though, that if I spent some time filing and setting the cheap saw it would do just as good as a job.
Good luck.
-G
That said, I have to say that once I started to focus on sawing straight (and closer to the line), the LN is now much friendlier and I find myself spending less time doing a better job.
I bet, though, that if I spent some time filing and setting the cheap saw it would do just as good as a job.
Good luck.
-G
I have a thing for Western style saws, I currently have a LN Dovetail saw, a Wenzloff & Son Dovetail Saw,a Tim Hoff "Spruce Mills" Dovetail Saw and an Adria Tenon Saw along with a plethora of old Disston Crosscut and Rips. A couple of those sharpened by Daryl Weir. As far as the Dovetail Saws I have, I feel like whatever feels good is the best single saw. Currently, that is my Wenzloff with Bubinga Handle. All 3 cut very well, but you can feel the difference in the cut. All 3 are very usable as would any saw that felt good and was sharpened appropriately. I think it is all a matter of what you like in the saw. The problem is getting to try them all out without having to purchase them all. Saws are a personal choice, western or other, it's all up to the individual.
I have a Wenzloff DT saw and a very old vintage Tyzack and Sons DT saw.
The Tyzack cuts true and makes good joints. The Wenzloff feels better and cuts a bit faster. The Tyzack was appx 50 dollars, the Wenzloff 130 or so.
If I were buying a starter and money mattered I'd get the Veritas from Lee Valley.
Chuck
The Tyzack cuts true and makes good joints. The Wenzloff feels better and cuts a bit faster. The Tyzack was appx 50 dollars, the Wenzloff 130 or so.
If I were buying a starter and money mattered I'd get the Veritas from Lee Valley.
Chuck
MIght be too late to chime in here, but I've the perspective of making all dovetail joints in my shop by hand. I have an Incra router table system, but after making a few boxes with it I decided that the "dovetail within a dovetail" that it will make was a bit too kitschy for my taste, and the standard dovetails that it will make don't meet my aesthetic requirements - they are too uniform and blocky.
I've also the perspective of teaching a few folks to cut dovetails by hand, so I've seen quite a few of the inexpensive "dovetail" saws from the big-box stores. The following is my opinion only:
"Dovetail" saws from the big-box stores are mislabeled. They'll cut wood, of course, but are an incredibly poor choice for someone trying to learn to do this by hand. They are often filed cross-cut with a high degree of set. While one can use a rip saw to make decent cross cuts (it'll just be slower), the opposite is not true. The chisel-point of a cross-cut tooth wants to follow grain lines, with the result that it's difficult to track a cross-cut filed saw when making a rip cut. The high degree of set is really, really bad for cutting dovetails. Because the set determines the kerf width, and the set is so much greater than the saw plate thickness, the saw wants to wobble in the cut, which is a disaster when hand-cutting dovetail joints. When cutting the first part of the joint (either tails or pins), it doesn't matter whether you track perfectly to your layout line, but it's critical that you be able to make a straight cut - any curve or correction in the kerf will make it nearly impossible to layout the opposite side of the joint and cut it so that it fits correctly.
The performance of these saws can be corrected to a degree - one can re-file the teeth with a 4" extra double slim taper saw file to remove the bevels on the teeth, and you can stone the sides of the saw or use a brass hammer and a wood block to remove some of the set, but this needs to be done correctly, and most beginners will not have the skill nor know how to evaluate the results of the tuning operation.
So for that reason, I highly suggest that you save the pennies necessary to either buy a Lie-Nielsen, Veritas, Adria, Wenzloff, Medallion Toolworks, Rob Cosman, or Andrew Lunn saw. All of these saws are correctly set up to cut dovetails out of the box, and when you're learning to do this, throwing in the extra difficulty of having a saw that is more difficult to use may well result in giving up in frustration.
Another alternative is to purchase an antique Disston, Spear and Jackson, Atkins and Son, or one of the numerous other 19th century British sawmaker's saws and have it correctly sharpened and set. Technoprimitives is one service, and there are other individuals out there that will do this for you for a reasonable charge. However, once you fight the collectors for a saw in an auction and then send it off to get it correctly set up, you may not save much money over a Lie-Nielsen, and definitely not over Lee Valley's inexpensive high-tech backsaw.
The handle on a dovetail saw is also very important, because your grip on the saw will sensitively affect the results. It's for this reason that I don't recommend the slightly higher-tier but still very cheap saws from Lynx, Pax, or Crown unless you've the tools, desire, and skill to modify the handle to remove the sharp arrises and make it fit your hand better.
Also remember that you are likely buying a dovetail saw for life. You would have to build an enormous amount of furniture to use up a high-quality dovetail saw by re-sharpening and re-setting the teeth. From that perspective, spending $120 or so on a saw that can be handed down to your grandkids doesn't seem so bad.
Finally, be aware that, particularly with Lie-Nielsen products, you can get back 80% or more of your initial investment if you decide hand-cut dovetails are not for you and want to sell it.
I've also the perspective of teaching a few folks to cut dovetails by hand, so I've seen quite a few of the inexpensive "dovetail" saws from the big-box stores. The following is my opinion only:
"Dovetail" saws from the big-box stores are mislabeled. They'll cut wood, of course, but are an incredibly poor choice for someone trying to learn to do this by hand. They are often filed cross-cut with a high degree of set. While one can use a rip saw to make decent cross cuts (it'll just be slower), the opposite is not true. The chisel-point of a cross-cut tooth wants to follow grain lines, with the result that it's difficult to track a cross-cut filed saw when making a rip cut. The high degree of set is really, really bad for cutting dovetails. Because the set determines the kerf width, and the set is so much greater than the saw plate thickness, the saw wants to wobble in the cut, which is a disaster when hand-cutting dovetail joints. When cutting the first part of the joint (either tails or pins), it doesn't matter whether you track perfectly to your layout line, but it's critical that you be able to make a straight cut - any curve or correction in the kerf will make it nearly impossible to layout the opposite side of the joint and cut it so that it fits correctly.
The performance of these saws can be corrected to a degree - one can re-file the teeth with a 4" extra double slim taper saw file to remove the bevels on the teeth, and you can stone the sides of the saw or use a brass hammer and a wood block to remove some of the set, but this needs to be done correctly, and most beginners will not have the skill nor know how to evaluate the results of the tuning operation.
So for that reason, I highly suggest that you save the pennies necessary to either buy a Lie-Nielsen, Veritas, Adria, Wenzloff, Medallion Toolworks, Rob Cosman, or Andrew Lunn saw. All of these saws are correctly set up to cut dovetails out of the box, and when you're learning to do this, throwing in the extra difficulty of having a saw that is more difficult to use may well result in giving up in frustration.
Another alternative is to purchase an antique Disston, Spear and Jackson, Atkins and Son, or one of the numerous other 19th century British sawmaker's saws and have it correctly sharpened and set. Technoprimitives is one service, and there are other individuals out there that will do this for you for a reasonable charge. However, once you fight the collectors for a saw in an auction and then send it off to get it correctly set up, you may not save much money over a Lie-Nielsen, and definitely not over Lee Valley's inexpensive high-tech backsaw.
The handle on a dovetail saw is also very important, because your grip on the saw will sensitively affect the results. It's for this reason that I don't recommend the slightly higher-tier but still very cheap saws from Lynx, Pax, or Crown unless you've the tools, desire, and skill to modify the handle to remove the sharp arrises and make it fit your hand better.
Also remember that you are likely buying a dovetail saw for life. You would have to build an enormous amount of furniture to use up a high-quality dovetail saw by re-sharpening and re-setting the teeth. From that perspective, spending $120 or so on a saw that can be handed down to your grandkids doesn't seem so bad.
Finally, be aware that, particularly with Lie-Nielsen products, you can get back 80% or more of your initial investment if you decide hand-cut dovetails are not for you and want to sell it.
I'm certainly not an expert at handcut DT's, but I'll share my experience.
I spent many hours attempting to cut even half decent joints with saws from 'stores', with nothing to show but frustration.
Before retiring I decided to get a few tools that I knew would be more difficult to buy after retiring.
One was a decent DT saw. I checked several vendors and communicated with their customers. I decided on a saw made by Ed Paik at http://www.medalliontools.com/
The difference was like day and night, you get the cut started correctly and the saw will hold the cut without wavering. I just checked the prices and see that the prices have gone up a lot since June 07, but still competitive with other brands.
Whether the cost is worth it or not is a personal decision that only you can make.
Good luck with your decision.
I spent many hours attempting to cut even half decent joints with saws from 'stores', with nothing to show but frustration.
Before retiring I decided to get a few tools that I knew would be more difficult to buy after retiring.
One was a decent DT saw. I checked several vendors and communicated with their customers. I decided on a saw made by Ed Paik at http://www.medalliontools.com/
The difference was like day and night, you get the cut started correctly and the saw will hold the cut without wavering. I just checked the prices and see that the prices have gone up a lot since June 07, but still competitive with other brands.
Whether the cost is worth it or not is a personal decision that only you can make.
Good luck with your decision.
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