Help setting the blade in Stanley Bailey #4 plane!!

[kooshball]

I was given an old Stanley Bailey #4 plane recently (with the ridges in the sole). The trouble is that I can't get the iron to sit in the mouth properly. With the bevel down the iron will sit flush with the front of the mouth which won't allow the shavings to come through the sole. I have tried to move the "ramp" (if that is what it is called) back but the same thing happens. It is almost as if the iron angle is too shallow.

Any ideas?

Thanks

 

[cpowell]

I was given an old Stanley Bailey #4 plane recently (with the ridges in the sole). The trouble is that I can't get the iron to sit in the mouth properly. With the bevel down the iron will sit flush with the front of the mouth which won't allow the shavings to come through the sole. I have tried to move the "ramp" (if that is what it is called) back but the same thing happens. It is almost as if the iron angle is too shallow.

Any ideas?

Thanks

A Stanley 4 with vintage iron shouldn't have any problem. Do you have pictures?

Bevel angle should be 25 degrees but up to 30 would work okay.

The ramp is called a frog. You should be able to line it up directly with the sole angle in the mouth. :icon_thum

It's possible someone used a thicker blade maybe?


Chuck

 

[eyekode]

My guess is some mistake with the frog/blade/chipiron assembly. If you take the frog out but assemble the iron on the frog properly it would look like this:

Check out the whole article: http://blog.woodworking-magazine.com/blog/Get+A+Flat+Frog+Sandwich.aspx

If it doesn't work out I am running an old-plane-orphanage at my place .
Salem

 

[kooshball]

I will need to get some photos tomorrow but I have aligned the frog with the mouth and I still have the same issue. Also, the iron is pretty thin so I am under the assumption that it is the original.

Thanks

A Stanley 4 with vintage iron shouldn't have any problem. Do you have pictures?

Bevel angle should be 25 degrees but up to 30 would work okay.

The ramp is called a frog. You should be able to line it up directly with the sole angle in the mouth. :icon_thum

It's possible someone used a thicker blade maybe?


Chuck

 

[eyekode]

David,
Are you sure the blade is lying flat on the frog (like the picture I posted previously)? Are you sure the bevel is down on the blade?
Salem

 

[Bryan S]

Here are some podcast that may help answer your questions.

http://www.logancabinetshoppe.com/1/post/2009/11/episode-11-hand-plane-tune-up.html

http://www.logancabinetshoppe.com/1/post/2009/12/quick-tip-3-adjusting-a-bench-plane-frog.html

http://www.logancabinetshoppe.com/1/post/2009/11/quick-tip-2.html

 

[kooshball]

Thanks guys. Let me clarify a few things since I made an error in my original post.

-The plane is actually a no 5 (not no 4).
-I have set just the iron against the frog with the frog flush with the back of the mouth and it sits flat but there is still no room between the front of the mouth and the iron
-yes the bevel is down

the width of the mouth opening seems pretty narrow; what is a "normal" dimension?

Thanks

 

[eyekode]

The mouth on my 2 #5's is .160. The iron is around .085. We need a picture. Or you could bring it by if you want .
Salem

 

[kooshball]

I am still looking for the camera but the width of my mouth is 0.14 and the Stanley iron is 0.10.

The mouth on my 2 #5's is .160. The iron is around .085. We need a picture. Or you could bring it by if you want .
Salem

 

[Bryan S]

David based on your last post, with the front of the frog flush with the back of the mouth it sounds like the frog is still too far forward. I am still early in this hand plane learning curve, but I did the same thing setting up my first plane. Like you did, I set the frog even with the back of the mouth and I had to move the frog back a good bit more than I thought it would have to be.

 

[09woodie22]

You have gotten plenty of informed input! Just FYI (and not trying to be an opportunist) if you find out it is the wrong blade I have a spare I'll part with for a song. :dontknow:

Gabe

 

[bluedawg76]

if you're blade measures 0.1" thick, it's probably a newer blade? which are typically the thicker versions at 0.095". Is it a Stanley blade? I have an older #7 which has a very tight mouth that will not accommodate a thicker blade. You can ever so carefully file the front of the mouth just a hair, but be very cautious and conservative doing this. You can also introduce an angle of appr. 15 degrees to give a little extra help in getting the shavings out of the way. Another thought is to set the cap iron back closer to 1/16" rather than 1/32 or less as typically suggested for a smoother plane and that will improve your clearance with such a tight mouth.

Sam

 

[Gofor]

Let's make sure you have it set up correctly:

First you have the plane body. That is the casting to which the handle (called a "tote") is screwed to.

Then you have the "frog", which you call the "ramp". This can be set back to where the bevel is behind the opening ("mouth") because the bevel on the blade (properly called "iron") will allow more clearance. Loosen the two screws in the frog that attach the frog to the body. Set the iron (blade) on it with the bevel side down and adjuster disk in the slot on the blade, and move it back until you have about 1/32 or more mouth clearance between the top of the blade and the front of the mouth with the blade shoved through the mouth. Remove blade and tighten frog screws.

Install the chip breaker. Screw is on the bottom (beveled side) and chip breaker is on top (flat side). Set front edge of chip breaker about 1/32" back from the cutting edge of the iron.

Put chip breaker/iron assembly on the frog with the chip breaker screw head in the recess on the frog. Make sure the tang on the depth adjustment screw is going into the slot on the chip breaker, and the lateral adjuster disk is inside the wide slot on the iron.

On top of this is the "cap iron", which holds it all secure and tight when in use. Lift the spring lever up and slide it full forward onto the chip breaker. Tighten screw until it just barely touches the cap iron, and then push the lever down.

My guess is that you have the frog too far forward, the blade sitting on top of the lateral adjustment disk, or the chip breaker sitting on top of the depth adjuster tang. I have used thicker irons (blades) than the original and have still had plenty of clearance but all have had a 25 degree primary bevel.

With a primary bevel of 25 degrees a much thicker iron can be used in any adjustable frog Stanley plane because the thickness of the blade going in front of the back edge of the mouth is no different than a stock iron. If you have a radical primary bevel (like 35+ degrees), you may be pushing the blade too far forward, which also may be your problem. Stanley/Bailey panes are designed for a 25 degree primary angle.

Hope this helps

Go

 

[kooshball]

Still no camera, sorry but I have a few updates.

First, thanks for all the replies!

I am not sure if the iron is stock but it does say Stanley sw inside a heart. The primary bevel is 25deg with a not so micro bevel of 30 deg taking up 3/32". The other Stanley iron that I have on a no6 is only .06" vs .1" for the no 5 iron.

I have taken everything apart so that I can place the iron flush on the frog and watch/feel what happens as I slide the iron into the mouth. With the frog back, the iron slides into to mouth but in order to get to the correct depth the iron rides up into the back of the mouth and closes off the clearance in the front on the iron.

From what I can see, three things that would would be a thinner iron, a steeper frog or perhaps a 20 deg primary bevel. Since the last two seem strange, perhaps a thinner iron is the way to go.

 

[bluedawg76]

well if it's a sw blade, it's not likely to be new. i thought production stopped on these in the 30's. also, i didn't realize they were that thick! perhaps the blade iron doesn't pair with the plane and is just a mistmatch? can you date the plane? there was a post a week or so ago with a nice link to a stanley plane dating site. what about the seating of the frog? are you sure it's seated at a 45 degree angle?

 

[Charlie Buchanan]

I just measured the mouth of a #5 Bailey, a #5 Bedrock and a K5 Keen Kutter--all fall between .160 and .165 in.
A mouth of .14 in is surprising in a Bailey which are usually too wide rather than too narrow. Still, a .10 iron should not be too thick if it's mounted correctly on a correct frog. 25 or 30 degree bevel should also work.

It could be a mismatched frog--there are many different styles of Bailey frog. Or maybe the iron adjusting lever is not meshing with the slot in the chipbreaker. That could cause the iron to ride up and bump the mouth rather than slide across the frog face when you spin the adjuster wheel. I've had that happen.

Good close-up photos of the frog with mounted iron would really help diagnose the problem.

Charlie Buchanan

 

[Mike Davis]

Please don't file the mouth until you are absolutely sure that is the last resort! This is something you can't undo.

I would like to see this plane in person.

 

[Gofor]

Just went out and measured everything on my Bailey 5C with micrometer and vernier calipers:.

Mouth is 0.170" wide

Current Stanley iron (newer version) is 0.092" thick. (The only SW iron I have is for my #6/7 and is 0.094 thick.

Clearance between front of mouth and iron is 0.032".

Frog is set back about 0.040" (had to use a spark plug gap gauge to measure that one) from the bevel on the back of the mouth.

One thing I did not mention before is that I have to move the chip breaker back to about 1/16" from the iron edge for all to work well.

HTHs. If the mouth on yours is indeed only 0.140", that may be the problem, but the bevel should not be hitting the back of the mouth before the blade is extended enough for almost any cutting. You will never need to extend the iron out of the mouth anywhere near the entire width of the bevel. Just can't see where anyone could have used it in the past if the mouth is too narrow.

Guess I am at a loss with this one without pics or seeing it in person.

Go

 

[kooshball]

I will have pics by Friday...

I do appreciate all the replies...

Thanks

 

[kooshball]

Here are some photos as promised (3-days late).

I am not sure if they are revealing but I took some shots of the markings on the plane as well as the plane with and without the iron in a "normal depth" position.

For clarification, I have verified that the frog is at 45 deg.