Dust Collection 4 inch or 6 inch

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Rhythm House Drums

New User
Kevin
Not sure if this is the right place to post this... but.. I've got this DC

http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/2080277/28948/General-15-HP-Dust-Collector-wCanister.aspx

It's 1.5 hp with a 6" port, but it comes with a connecting Y with 2 4" ports. Would using a 4" port right off the machine choke it a bit?

A few questions.. I've got 240v in my shop, are there any benefits to the power or motor condition by rewiring for 240v?

Also, I'm planning on going up into the ceiling with pipe and coming down in 3 spots with blast gates, should I run 6" pipe or a 4" pipe... or a 4" pipe off each end of the Y? My shop is about 300sq ft if that matters, so I wont be running pipe more than (8up, 20 over, 8down...) 36 feet or so. My jointer and planer will be closest to the DC but my table saw will be at the other end of the shop.. I want to make sure I'll get enough flow there.

Any Suggestions for this hook up or ideas on the most efficient way to do this??

BTW is there a search function on this forum?
 

Gotcha6

Dennis
Staff member
Corporate Member
Search function(s) are on a drip down @ upper right corner of the page.
As for the DC, there are many schools of thought in this issue but most would agree that a 6" trunk & drop to the planer/jointer and 4" to remaining tools should be adequate.
The citical issue in any DC system in smaller shops is what happens AFTER the sawdust is collected. Good filtration or outside discharge are important for respiratory health.
 

MarkE

Mark
Corporate Member
There are a number of members here that have vast knowledge and experience with dust collection. I'm sure you will get feedback from them.

As Dennis has said, most would probably agree that going with the larger pipe, at least to the first branch, would be the way to go.
 

Bill Clemmons

Bill
Corporate Member
I'm of the same mind as Dennis and Mark: stay w/ the largest diameter duct you can (in your case, 6") for as long as you can. I would run a single 6" duct from the DC all the way to each machine you plan to hook up. At some point you will probably have to switch to flexible duct to make the actual connection. At that point, put in a reducer (6-4), a 4" blast gate, and then run the flex duct to the machine. Try to keep the length of flex duct as short as possible. Flex duct has more internal resistance than smooth duct.

As for going to 240 volts, there are several ways to look at it. Will it increase the power of your motor? I've heard pros and cons on this, so I just don't know. But it will definitely reduce the amperage you're pulling (Amps = watts / volts) and amperage is how the electric company charges. Generally speaking, if it is reasonably practical I try to convert to 240.

HTH

Bill
 

Bas

Recovering tool addict
Bas
Corporate Member
At that point, put in a reducer (6-4), a 4" blast gate, and then run the flex duct to the machine.
That's the way I'm doing it. If the tool has a 4" port, and you don't want to cut into it, you have to step it down at some point. The later the better. I'm thinking about replacing the dust port on my 16/32 JET sander at some point. The hinged top should come off pretty easily and I can make a simply plywood replacement. But cutting into my Jointer/ Planer? I don't think so....

Now, when I first started looking at this, I couldn't see the advantage of running 6" for the main line, and then reducing to 4". Wouldn't running 4" all the way be the same? But that's not the case. The air will experience resistance from the duct work on its way back to the DC. Imagine the air molecules near the edge of the pipe bouncing around, bouncing into each other, slowing down. With 6" pipe, there is obviously a lot more air in the center that's not experiencing that friction.

But it will definitely reduce the amperage you're pulling (Amps = watts / volts) and amperage is how the electric company charges. Generally speaking, if it is reasonably practical I try to convert to 240.l
Actually, the electric company charges by the (kilo)watt. So it doesn't matter if you run the tool at 120V or 240V, you're paying the same amount. However, the lower amperage does mean you can use a lighter gauge wire. Ignoring losses, efficiency, altitude & weather conditions, a 3HP motor is ~2250Watts. At 120V, that's ~18A. At 240V, it's ~9A. Big difference.
 

Rhythm House Drums

New User
Kevin
Thanks for the input guys. Looks like 6" pipe it is.

I've heard that argument before about the 240 being cheaper to run cause you use half the amps... but with the equation (amps = watts/volts) running half the amps at twice the volts is the same thing :) So it costs the same to run.

To Gotacha6.. I've got a 1micron filter that is effecient 99.9% and 89% at .5 micron. I always try to wear a mask when I'm working also.

Should I be doing anything else to protect my lungs? I've looked at the air cleaners, but they are all around 1 micron.. which is what my DC is, so I dont see much use in getting one.

I've also thought about hooking the DC pipe to a little box on the ceiling with a regular lowes type filter in it... that way when I run the DC I'm cleaning the air also... not sure if this would work or not though. Anyone tried this approach?
 

Glennbear

Moderator
Glenn
Thanks for the input guys. Looks like 6" pipe it is.

I've heard that argument before about the 240 being cheaper to run cause you use half the amps... but with the equation (amps = watts/volts) running half the amps at twice the volts is the same thing :) So it costs the same to run.

To Gotacha6.. I've got a 1micron filter that is effecient 99.9% and 89% at .5 micron. I always try to wear a mask when I'm working also.

Should I be doing anything else to protect my lungs? I've looked at the air cleaners, but they are all around 1 micron.. which is what my DC is, so I dont see much use in getting one.

I've also thought about hooking the DC pipe to a little box on the ceiling with a regular lowes type filter in it... that way when I run the DC I'm cleaning the air also... not sure if this would work or not though. Anyone tried this approach?

Dust collection threads here create HUGE discussions :gar-La; Here are my thoughts on the subject. In an ideal situation your DC would capture all of the dust as it is generated but in the real world it does not and the purpose of an air cleaner is to capture the stuff that is not grabbed by the DC. Think ROS sanding, top of the blade on the TS etc. As far as using a box hooked to your DC as an air cleaner I do NOT think that would be a wise idea. A dust collector creates a high velocity air flow to "vacuum" dust through ductwork but has fairly low air volume. An air filter creates a high volume air flow so that the maximum amount of air passes through the filter media. To rob air flow from your DC to attempt to filter shop air would likely be counterproductive. A low tech way to add some air filtration to your shop is to fasten a quality furnace filter over the intake side of a box fan. :wsmile:
 
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MarkE

Mark
Corporate Member
To continue Glenn's thought on an air cleaner, another low tech idea is to build one using an old furnace fan mounted in a wooden box with furnace filters on the intake side.

I had just posted a CL ad a day or three ago for someone that was selling 2 furnace fans for $20. Those are probably gone by now, but they do come around from time to time.

Edit:
Maybe not, they are still listed:
http://raleigh.craigslist.org/mat/2196171911.html
 
M

McRabbet

Kenin,

You've gotten good input so far, but I'll add a few things to clarify.

1) 120 vs 240: Assuming the motor is under 2 HP, there is no savings with the conversion and performance of the motor will not be changed. You need to use 240V whenver the motor size is larger than 1-1/2 HP - 2 HP or so because you normally do not want to run most 120 V circuits above 15 amps. I have both 20 Amp and 30 Amp 240 Volt circuits to power my 3 HP table saw and 2 HP shaper (20 Amp) and my 5 HP Woodmaster Drum sander and 5 HP ClearVue Cyclone are on 30 Amp circuits. I have run #10 wire for both circuits because I am drawing just over 20 amps on the 30 Amp breakers and didn't feel I needed to run #8 wire.

2) Use 6" ducts for your primary duct runs and avoid tight 90 degree turns (I use a pair of 45's with a short section of straight pipe) and fllex duct because they have higher static pressure loss per foot. I use 6" Sewer & Drain pipe (ASTM D-2729) with bell ends -- it is hard to find but check with major plumbing suppliers. You can get fittings at most Lowe's stores in the Drainage aisle near the black ABS pipe. I never glue the joints as you will want to change the layout at some point -- if you must seal, use clear Silicone caulk on the outside of the joint. Keep blast gates close to the tool and make your own to save money (do an advanced search on this website for Blast gates and include either my name or Alan in Little Washington).

3) Always try to capture all dust at the source -- I'm not a big fan of ceiling mounted air cleaners because they are just catching what you lungs are already breathing if you have lots of dust in the air. I use a mini cyclone attached to a HEPA filtered shop vac with a hose to my random orbit sander or my miter saw or stationary belt sander AND wear an OSHA approved face respirator whenever I use these tools. An overhead dust collection guard on a table saw is also a good accessory when using a zero clearance insert in your saw.

4) Always wear a dust mask when using woods that are toxic or commonly cause irritation (e.g., black walnut). I've gotten mine at Grizzly and they are very effective.

Hope This Helps.
 

drw

Donn
Corporate Member
You have received some outstanding advice, so there isn't much I can add. That said, while Rob (McRabbet) mentioned that he isn't a fan of overhead air filtration systems, I have the opposite viewpoint. I do agree that capturing dust at its origin is the best approach, but it is seldom 100% effective; moreover, most shop DC systems are also not 100% effective. Therefore, most shop environments will have some level of fine dust circulating while certain equipment is operating and for a period of time immediately after operations have ceased. Based on my experience, a good overhead system will help clear the air much quicker than a shop without such a system, which creates a healthier shop environment.

Good luck,
Donn
 

MarkE

Mark
Corporate Member
You have received some outstanding advice, so there isn't much I can add. That said, while Rob (McRabbet) mentioned that he isn't a fan of overhead air filtration systems, I have the opposite viewpoint. I do agree that capturing dust at its origin is the best approach, but it is seldom 100% effective; moreover, most shop DC systems are also not 100% effective. Therefore, most shop environments will have some level of fine dust circulating while certain equipment is operating and for a period of time immediately after operations have ceased. Based on my experience, a good overhead system will help clear the air much quicker than a shop without such a system, which creates a healthier shop environment.

Good luck,
Donn

I agree.

Just one look at the filters on my JDS 750 tells me that it is collecting a lot of the airborne dust. Plus, the timer feature allows it to run from 1 to 4 hours after I leave to continue to scrub the air. That leaves less dust on the horizontal surfaces that would have become airborne again the next time I use the shop.

Better to collect as much dust as you can in any and all filters than breath it all in.
 

Alan in Little Washington

Alan Schaffter
Corporate Member
A few clarifications-

Dust collectors work by moving large volumes of air at high velocity- the CFM to catch as much dust as possible at the source (the machine) before it escapes, the velocity to keep the chips in suspension. They also have one other attribute, static pressure (suction), to overcome resistance in ducting. A fan curve will illustrate the relationship between these.

Air cleaners, like the popular Jet AFS1000, fall below all but the smallest DCs in all categories because they work in a different way- they cycle and recycle the air through their filter to capture dust over time. Of, course during that time you could be breathing in a lot of dust and unlike a DC with a pickup mounted right at the machine, an air cleaner may only be filtering the air in the immediate vicinity of the unit. There is nothing to tell a cloud of dust on one side of the shop to report for duty at the inlet to the air cleaner. Air cleaners on timers are good at keeping a shop cleaner- if you let them run for an hour or more after you leave, the shop will be cleaner the next day.

To catch as much dust at the source, you want to avoid any restrictions to flow- efficient duct work that avoids turns and has limited flex. Also avoid reducing the diameter of the ducting. There are two reasons to reduce the size of the ducting and they rarely come into play in a small home shop. One is to balance a system where more than one machine will be used at the same time, the other to maintain velocity (at approx 4000 fpm) so large chips do not fall out of the air mass and begin to clog the duct.

One of the worst components in DC is the filter. A single stage DC has two issues- many fabric bags pass a lot of the fine dangerous dust (.5 - 10 microns), especially just after cleaning. Also, they begin to clog immediately when you use them- as the clogging increases, the more air is restricted from passing through, which means you are not collecting as much dust at the source. The best option, if you can do it, is to discharge directly outside or through a cyclone or other separator without a filter. If you must use a filter, use a pre-separator. That won't solve the clogging problem but it will delay it.

If you haven't done so, read Bill Pentz's website.

Changing over to 220V will not have any impact on the power output of the motor, it just reduces the current demand on your wiring.
 

JimmyC

New User
Jimmy
I agree with veryone above for the most part, but I would also add a Thien seperator to your set up either way. The cost is negligible and it will help your DC become more efiicient on the whole.

Good luck,
 

MarkE

Mark
Corporate Member
I use a Thein separator on my system, but it does take a toll on CFM. It is very efficient at removing the large chips and a lot of the dust before it gets to the DC, but, there is still quite a bit of the really fine stuff that gets through. If you can vent outside, no problem, If you can't get good filters. More filter surface area = less frequent cleanings.

Also, building a Thein separator to use with 6" (or larger) pipe turns into a bit more of a project. Check out Phil Theins site to get more information on how to build a 6" separator.

http://www.cgallery.com/smf/
 

KC7CN

New User
Don
Kenin,

You've gotten good input so far, but I'll add a few things to clarify.

1) 120 vs 240: Assuming the motor is under 2 HP, there is no savings with the conversion and performance of the motor will not be changed. You need to use 240V whenver the motor size is larger than 1-1/2 HP - 2 HP or so because you normally do not want to run most 120 V circuits above 15 amps. I have both 20 Amp and 30 Amp 240 Volt circuits to power my 3 HP table saw and 2 HP shaper (20 Amp) and my 5 HP Woodmaster Drum sander and 5 HP ClearVue Cyclone are on 30 Amp circuits. I have run #10 wire for both circuits because I am drawing just over 20 amps on the 30 Amp breakers and didn't feel I needed to run #8 wire.
........

Some good advice here, but I would like to add my 2 cents worth with regard to using 120V. The following is cut-n-paste one of my previous post:

I have five 20A circuits in my 2 car garage shop, dedicated for my power tools. The breaker would trip about 1 out of 15-20 times, within a second of pushing the power button. The only load on the circuit was the tool being used! This was the case for the dust collector and the table saw, both 1-1/2HP motors. And it was not a one time problem - it happened at my last home, and most recently in our new home. Not all motors are the same! I've never had a problem with my 2HP air compressor and 1-1/2HP band saw.

I contacted Delta in October of 2007 about the DC (Model 50-760) problem, and they told me the requirement is a 20A "Time Lapse" circuit breaker. I contacted Square D and they recommended the HOM120HM high magnetic circuit breaker to solve inrush tripping issue; that it has a higher magnetic pick up point then the standard 1 pole 20A. Note - Square D does not offer hi-mag circuit breakers in the mini-breaker (2 breaker in one slot) size!

Don't hesitate to install 120V 20A circuits if the shop is small, and you don't anticipate upgrading to a larger tool; for the convenience of 120V circuits; if you have this problem it's an easy fix!

I hope this information is helpful as it can be a very annoying problem for a tool that comes equipped with a 120V plug!

 

BSHuff

New User
Brian
One thing about how the power company measures power. You have 2 phases into the box. When using both you get 220, when using one you get 110. You should balance your phases so both the hots use the same amount of power. The meters take the highest phase current as a prime consideration to determine your usage (actually more complex than this, but I am over simplifying). If your electrical design was poorly done and has all of your high power tools off one phase, lets say you are using 100a on phase 1 and 20 amps of lights/etc on phase 2. Your usage for that period might get recorded as a little over 100a used. However if you have all 220 machines, it draws equally off of each phase, so each phase only gets hit for half the current. So same load as before, that 100a becomes 50a + your 20a lights, that means your metered usage will be closer to 50a.

So the 220 machines will balance your usage better, however a good electrical design would limit this, it is something to think about.
 

Guy in Paradise

New User
Guy Belleman
Not Gluing the joints????

Kenin,
"I use 6" Sewer & Drain pipe (ASTM D-2729) with bell ends -- it is hard to find but check with major plumbing suppliers. You can get fittings at most Lowe's stores in the Drainage aisle near the black ABS pipe. I never glue the joints as you will want to change the layout at some point -- if you must seal, use clear Silicone caulk on the outside of the joint."

I have never heard of not gluing the joints before. Makes sense, since most do change their setup at times. Is the fit good enough that unglued joints don't leak? If this works, it sure will make the setup I plan next summer go faster.

If the joints are unglued, I would presume that the pipe must more securely strapped in place. Any advice on that aspect?

Thank-you, this is good information.
 

Guy in Paradise

New User
Guy Belleman
Adapter from 7" to 6"

Another question, my DC has a 7" inlet. So, is there a recommendation for an adapter to the 6" S&D pipe, or should I just use some sheet metal to make one?

Thank-you again for the information.
 

Alan in Little Washington

Alan Schaffter
Corporate Member
Re: Not Gluing the joints????

I have never heard of not gluing the joints before. Makes sense, since most do change their setup at times. Is the fit good enough that unglued joints don't leak? If this works, it sure will make the setup I plan next summer go faster.

If the joints are unglued, I would presume that the pipe must more securely strapped in place. Any advice on that aspect?

Thank-you, this is good information.

Friction fit with a bead of silicone on the "OUTSIDE" holds pretty well. No special strapping is needed. Remember you are not plumbing water and there is no stress on the plumbing- a strap at each union for horizontal runs is more than enough. Support vertical runs at the bottom.
 

Alan in Little Washington

Alan Schaffter
Corporate Member
Re: Adapter from 7" to 6"

Another question, my DC has a 7" inlet. So, is there a recommendation for an adapter to the 6" S&D pipe, or should I just use some sheet metal to make one?

Thank-you again for the information.

Use a 6" piece of tire inner tube and two clamps. I got one (from a truck tire?) for free from tire shop. Not only does it make a good adapter it also acts as a sound isolator.
 
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