Raised Panel Bit Set

[cpowell]

I spent 6 hours Saturday and 7 hours yesterday fiddling with my no-name 3 piece raised panel set to make two panels. I re-made 2 sets of stiles while trying to get rid of the gap between stiles and rails that was visible on the face. I learned a lot but ended up ripping a few thousandths off of the rails to get the rail-to-stile fit acceptable.

I discovered that the face cutter took a deeper cut than was possible with the cope cutter. I did manage to come up with a process for making the cope cuts without tearout so the effort was not entirely fruitless.

If I took less cut on the face then the coped stile cut would fit tight to the rails, eliminating the gap, but the fit was a little bit loose.

Question 1...Should I simply accept a slight gap on the joint between stile and rail at the surface (maybe 4-6 thousandths) so that I have a tight glue surface in the interior of the joint, or opt to make a shallower cut on the faces so that the visible joint line is seamless? I don't believe that the bits are machined to a tolerance that will allow me to correct the problem with shims...this is a 50 dollar 3 piece set.

My bigger beef is with the 3 1/4 inch diameter ogee raised panel cutter (with undercut) . The panel was 14 x 17 inches, 7/8 thick red oak. I had to make each cut in 5 passes. The feed rate had to be kept VERY slow to prevent bogging down the router and the resultant cut had a lot of "strings" of fiber attached, which leads me to think the bit is just not sharp. I had to clean the edges with a sharp chisel and sandpaper every pass. Playing with speed did NOT seem to make an improvement...I'd estimate I ranged speed from 8000 - 12000 rpm without seeing any improvement in performance.

I will need to cut 7 more raised panels to finish my current project. Given the time spent I am leaning heavily toward purchasing a 3 piece set from a reputable manufacturer. When I started using a router I went through similar problems using the cheap bits from the BORG. I started buying Freud bits and the problem has gone away. I have also noticed the Freud bits cut a lot more linear feet of wood before dulling.

Question 2...If I buy a name brand (Whiteside, Freud, etc) raised panel bit will I be able to make the panel in fewer passes without this loose fiber problem? Ideally, a 2 pass setup would be great but I could live with three so long as I don't have to clean edges every pass.

Chuck

 

[Sweetgum]

What HP router are you using?

 

[Jim Murphy]

I made a door in 3/4" poplar this morning with Freud bits (not raised panel, though). M12-V router. Rails and stiles in one pass, perfect fit. I started with cheapie bits, was frustrated as all getout. Right now, go find a Freud set and enjoy the rest of the door thing. You will need to make the raised panels in at least 3 passes, and the last pass should be measured in thousands to clean up the edges. Sandpaper will be required for the panels, the rails and stiles are good to go right off the table. HTH.

Jim

 

[Travis Porter]

1. Personal preference as to what you are willing to live with. Personally, I would get a good set of bits and the majority of your problems would go away. My first set of cope and stick bits were Bosch, and the didn't fit worth a flip. As for bits, Freud are good stuff IMO. It isn't unusual to have a little stringiness on the end grain, but not as much as you are speaking towards.

2. Your bit either isn't sharp or good quality carbide IMO. I have a Freud and a CMT and have very little "stringiness". I have the router at the slowest speed and do it in 3 passes with the last pass being very light more or less a finish cut. You can get away with 2, but I don't know that I would do it personally. I lean more towards 3.

 

[cpowell]

I've spent (wasted) enough time on this lesson.

How does THIS Freud set look? Amazon.com: Freud 97-210 3-Piece Door Set 99-261 99-571 (1/2" Shank) W/Backcutter: Tools & Hardware

BTW I'm using a new 15 amp Hitachi M12-V2...3 1/4 HP...yeah, right!

Chuck

 

[Jim Murphy]

I guess you're doing this:

Use a sled (sliding panel bottom, dead square guide fence, sandpaper and toggle clamps) to cut the copes first and then dual featherboards (hold flat to table and hold strong against fence) for the stick cut.

The Freud set you referenced is what I have. Once you get the cope cut to your satisfaction, put a scrap across the bit and save it for a setup gauge for next time.

When I set up the stick bit height, I use my just-cut cope piece and slide a razor blade across the top cut to ensure the cutter blade on the stick bit is dead on for height.

You can easily feel when the cutter is above the wood with the razor blade. Use a light touch, though.

It is a magical moment when they press fit with no seams.

 

[Travis Porter]

It looks like a good set. The cope and stick are ogee. Not an issue, but I believe you were looking for round over/bead. I like the anti-kickback design, and I have had zero issues with Freud bits.

FWIW, I have not used a raised panel bit with a back cutter. I have always gone back and back cut them with either a rabbeting bit in the router table or a dado in the tablesaw.

Unlike Jim, I have to stay away from razor blades as I am notorious for cutting myself. :roll: What he says makes a lot of sense to me though. Haven't thought of that one.

 

[Jim Murphy]

This is becoming the Jim and Travis show, it seems.

Remember that with the backcutter, you have to set the bit height where you want it the first time and leave it there. You move the fence further and further away to do the "nibbling". DAMHIKT.

 

[cpowell]

Here's a few pics of the panels with the no-name set. Are these as bad as I think they are?

Chuck

 

[Splinter]

Chuck I have that set from Freud. I bought my set from Freud at the Charlotte WW'ing show in 2004 and it came in a nice wood box and a mini DVD.

I have used it to make all the doors in a full set of kitchen cabinets and bathroom vanities using curly maple. I think you will be well pleased with this set. You will have to make at least three passes when doing the raised panel. It it really taking a lot of wood off the door panel. Take off a small amount with the last pass to get a cleaner finish on the cut. You can borrow my set if you don't want to buy one but I live about 1 1/2 hour drive from you.

 

[Jim Murphy]

Put some clamps on it and see if it doesn't pull closed. That doesn't look bad to me.

 

[DaveO]

Chuck those look as good as the ones on my BORG cabinets. You have to have a little room for glue.
Dave

 

[McRabbet]

Chuck,

The joints look quite adequate and as DaveO suggests, will leave a little room for the glue. The Freud bits will cut better for sure, but setup and router power will dictate the ease and accuracy of cuts. I always use a coping sled for the stick cuts.

I am curious why your rails and stiles are different thickness? 7/8" thick panel is also a little unusual (my experience is 3/4" to 5/8" thick). I've used panel raising bits with and without back cutters -- I prefer them with as is saves follow up steps. I've also had best luck at 10,000 RPM for bits of that size -- my 3-1/2 HP Milwaukee can cut a 3/4" raised panel in one pass, but I usually do them in 3 passes.

Rob.

 

[Gofor]

Chuck, from the pictures, it appears the culprit on the fit is just the shoulder of the inside McRabbet. It appears if you trim just a tad more off the inside of the stile shoulder (about .003 or .004,) you will get a good fit when you clamp. I have an old Craftsman rabbet plane (same style as the Stanley 78 that you can borrow if you need it. Probable easier to nibble it down with the tablesaw or a paring chisel, tho.
Can't comment on the bits/quality. What ones I've done have been with a molding head in the TS (Not the desired method) but I don't have a "new" green machine sittin' in my shop, either!!
I can commiserate. Its really a pain when a tool/bit doesn't do the job it was supposed to which causes all kinds of extra work. If you want to name the bit brand, I won't be offended as I won't buy any!!

Go

PS, the joints don't look bad, but I can understand that they don't meet your satisfaction.

.

 

[cpowell]

Chuck,

The joints look quite adequate and as DaveO suggests, will leave a little room for the glue. The Freud bits will cut better for sure, but setup and router power will dictate the ease and accuracy of cuts. I always use a coping sled for the stick cuts.

I am curious why your rails and stiles are different thickness? 7/8" thick panel is also a little unusual (my experience is 3/4" to 5/8" thick). I've used panel raising bits with and without back cutters -- I prefer them with as is saves follow up steps. I've also had best luck at 10,000 RPM for bits of that size -- my 3-1/2 HP Milwaukee can cut a 3/4" raised panel in one pass, but I usually do them in 3 passes.

Rob.

As far as thickness, the rails and panel are 7/8. I tried setting up for 3/4 stock on the rails and panel initially and did not like the resultant look. The amount of stock behind the panel groove would have been less than 1/8. So I decided to go with 7/8. 13/16 would probably have worked but I like the math better with 7/8 than with 13/16. :lol:

The stiles are cut into the leg posts and are thicker because the front face frames and rear frames attach to the side panel legs with M&T joints.

When I get the new bit set I will run a setup on 3/4 stock. If I like it I will definitely do the remainder of the cabinet using 3/4. Nobody will know but me (and, of course, you folks).

Chuck

I unplugged the router and checked the edge of the RP bit and it is hopelessly dull already, although the rail/stile bits are still quite sharp. I don't have any idea where it was made...truly a no-name!

 

[Travis Porter]

When you take the cope and stick apart are they loose or is there friction? You want a slight bit of friction.

As others have said, put a clamp on it. To your point, get a good set and you will see a difference.

 

[stoneskippers]

I wish I could be of more help but, not working with your table and cutters all my comments would be guess work. I made all of my doors with a 3 piece set from CMT. The panel cutter was 2-1/2" and it took 2 passes to make the panels. After the first cut you changed bearings and made the last pass. Cmt has a good tutorial for raised panel doors.

 

[cpowell]

Well, my Freud 3 piece set came today. I installed the raised panel bit, set the depth to match the panels I've made, then ran my "setup" piece through. This set is certainly made for 3/4 stock. The profile is also different. I can't mix and match panels on my current piece. BTW the Freud RP bit cut the panel like it was butter! :eusa_danc :eusa_danc

I checked the rail/stile bits and the profile is just different enough that I can't run my existing rails/stiles through. I'm going to make a pass with each to make setup pieces.

So, here's the price of trying to use garbage bits. My existing panels need to be recut with the new RP bit. First they need to be planed to 3/4 thick. The existing panels are glued and raised. They are too wide to run through my 13 inch planer. :eusa_doh:

The existing rail/stile bits are different enough that I can't run my existing rail/stile stock through them. I am going to run a test piece through and see if the stile profile matches closely enough that I can use the old panel. I may end up having to remake the entire frame.

The moral of the story...DON'T use cheap router bits to make raised panels!!

Chuck

 

[Travis Porter]

Hmmm....

Don't you know someone close who has a Performax that can sand your panels?

 

[cpowell]

Hmmm....

Don't you know someone close who has a Performax that can sand your panels?

I'm gonna call him today! I can't reuse on these 2 side pieces because the difference in the old and new RP bits won't but can use them elsewhere. The new bit has a much flatter profile and is designed for a thinner panel. If I cut the panels to get the face flush with the frame I would eat away the panel edges.

Travis (or others), do you use a coping sled for the cope cuts? If so, can you post pics? Freud sent plans along with the bits but I would like to build the sled ONCE if possible. There's nothing like tried and true jig designs.

I've been using my Incra miter gauge, which works but is a pain to use.

Chuck