Finishing Issue - Need Help!

[Canuck]

I have been using pretty much the same finishing schedule for the past six years or so and run into a perplexing issue.

It is all constructed with QSRO.

I was making raised panels for a project and decided to prefinish. I sanding the face of the panels (front and rear to 180 G and the outside bevels to 200G. I then applied 1 coat of Minwax oil based stain. I assembled the case and proceeded to stain the rest of the carcass. (top, rails, stiles etc.

When I added the wipeon poly, the face of my panels developed a white chalky appearance and seemed to eat through the stain.

Here is a picture of a couple of the panels......

On advice from Howard Acheson the inside of the case (panel backs) I topcoated with dewaxed shellac to knock down the odor from the stain and poly and don't see the issue...

Likewise. All of the rails, stiles and the top of this case are fine with the same finishing schedule?

Both the stain and the satin wipeon poly are out of brand new cans that I kept in the house until finish time. The temp. in the shop was around 62-65 degrees.

If anyone out there has encountered this type of an issue, your advice relative to repair sure would be much appreciated!

Feeling down and beatin'!:dontknow::icon_scra:BangHead::BangHead:

Thanks in advance for your input.

Wayne

 

[FredP]

not a clue but from the pics it looks like the poly did not adhere correctly. Only one fix I see is resand and finish.:icon_scra hope someone has a better solution.

 

[jmauldin]

How long did you wait to apply the poly after staining? It looks like the stain was not dry enough and the poly (esp. if it was waterbased) reacted. Since the back side, which had a seal coat of shellac did not exhibit this problem, this seems like what has happened to me. I agree that the only option you have is to strip the front sides, stain, apply shellac seal coat, and then finish. You might be able to scrape/sand the front rather than having to use a stripper - MAYBE!
Jim in Mayberry

 

[Canuck]

How long did you wait to apply the poly after staining? It looks like the stain was not dry enough and the poly (esp. if it was waterbased) reacted. Since the back side, which had a seal coat of shellac did not exhibit this problem, this seems like what has happened to me. I agree that the only option you have is to strip the front sides, stain, apply shellac seal coat, and then finish. You might be able to scrape/sand the front rather than having to use a stripper - MAYBE!
Jim in Mayberry

Jim.

I prefinished the panels with one coat of oil based stain about 1.5 weeks before I assembled. I used the Minwax wipeon satin poly. The issue didn't rear it's ugly head until the poly was just about dry. And even then it is spotty. (ie some panels (8) are covered in the chalkiness and some just have streaks?)

Sounds like my only option is to go back sanding and reapplying the finish.:roll:

What is really weird though is the rest of the cabinet is fine. (top, rails and stiles etc):dontknow:

I am hoping that I can just sand away the blemishes, restain and try the wipeon poly again.

Thanks for the input.

Sounds like you have experienced a similar finishing issue. Glad I am not alone.

Wayne

 

[jmauldin]

Given what you have said, it MAY BE that the poly is bad. Check dates on can and try a new can to see if that is the problem or try the old poly on a scrap piece and see if the problem reoccurs. Other than this I can think of no reason why it reacted as it did. But, again, why did it not occur on the side with shellac?
Let me know how this turns out.
Jim in Mayberry

 

[Bas]

What is really weird though is the rest of the cabinet is fine. (top, rails and stiles etc):dontknow:

If the rest of the piece is fine, it's not likely the poly is bad or the stain wasn't dry. When you sanded/ cleaned the panels, did you use a rag or tack cloth different from the rag you used to clean the rails/ stiles? Did the panels sit anywhere in the shop where they might have picked up a contaminant? If you used compressed air, could there have been oil/ water in the line? Temperature differences means one day your compressed air is fine, the next day it's mixed with water in the tank. It could even be dust from something that settled in the pores.

Sorry to hear about your finishing troubles too. Nothing worse than having to sand it down again and refinish.... :tinysmile_cry_t:

 

[scsmith42]

If the rest of the piece is fine, it's not likely the poly is bad or the stain wasn't dry. When you sanded/ cleaned the panels, did you use a rag or tack cloth different from the rag you used to clean the rails/ stiles? Did the panels sit anywhere in the shop where they might have picked up a contaminant? If you used compressed air, could there have been oil/ water in the line? Temperature differences means one day your compressed air is fine, the next day it's mixed with water in the tank. It could even be dust from something that settled in the pores.

Sorry to hear about your finishing troubles too. Nothing worse than having to sand it down again and refinish.... :tinysmile_cry_t:

+1 - from looking at the pix it appears to me that there may have been some type of contaminant on the tack rag that you used on the outside of the panels.

 

[Canuck]

If the rest of the piece is fine, it's not likely the poly is bad or the stain wasn't dry. When you sanded/ cleaned the panels, did you use a rag or tack cloth different from the rag you used to clean the rails/ stiles? No, I used the same cloth. Actually I wiped all of the panels with mineral spirits to highlight the grain when choosing the location for each panel in the finished piece. Did the panels sit anywhere in the shop where they might have picked up a contaminant? No. Not that I know of. If you used compressed air, could there have been oil/ water in the line? Temperature differences means one day your compressed air is fine, the next day it's mixed with water in the tank.No compressed air used. Just a new tac cloth. It could even be dust from something that settled in the pores.

Sorry to hear about your finishing troubles too. Nothing worse than having to sand it down again and refinish.... :tinysmile_cry_t:

Tiime to break out the sanding supplies!:gar-Cr:gar-Cr
I ain't gonna let this beat me though.

Thanks for your input, Bas.

Wayne

 

[BSHuff]

What kind of sand paper did you use/did you recently change? Did you possibly use the new 'Norton 3X' or the 3M equivalent 'stearated' sand paper? That stuff has a dry lubricant in it that has been know to effect some finishes.

The target lacquer people recommend wiping down with 50/50 Denatured/Water when you are done sanding to minimize some of the effects of it if you used it, but recommend not using the stearated paper at all.

 

[Howard Acheson]

Couple of thoughts. First, did you thoroughly wipe off the excess stain after letting it set for 15 minutes?

Red oak has deep pores and oil based stain can take a long time to fully dry. Overcoating non-dry stain can lead to adhesion problems with oil based clear finishes.

Store bought tack rags can be problematic. They can have chemicals in them that can contaminate the surface you are cleaning. Also, they tend to pick up contaminates from one area or item and deposit then in other places. It's much better and safer to just dampen a clean rag with mineral spirits and then use that. Discard it when you are done. It's important to allow all the mineral spirits to fully evaporate before applying you clear coats. Again, the deep pores can harbor un-evaporated MS which can cause later problems.

Try something for me. Wipe on some mineral spirits and see if the "white" goes away (make it pretty wet). There is the possibility that the flatters in the satin finish were not fully stirred into suspension.

Only problem with refinishing is that you have now partially filled the deep pores with finish. If you sand, and refinish, the areas you refinish will be smoother looking like you used filler on those parts. What ever you do, do it to only one door. That way you only have one to fix if things don't work.

 

[Canuck]

Couple of thoughts. First, did you thoroughly wipe off the excess stain after letting it set for 15 minutes?Yes, I thought I did.

Red oak has deep pores and oil based stain can take a long time to fully dry. Overcoating non-dry stain can lead to adhesion problems with oil based clear finishes. I let the stain dry for approximately 24 hours.

Store bought tack rags can be problematic. They can have chemicals in them that can contaminate the surface you are cleaning. Also, they tend to pick up contaminates from one area or item and deposit then in other places. It's much better and safer to just dampen a clean rag with mineral spirits and then use that. Discard it when you are done. It's important to allow all the mineral spirits to fully evaporate before applying you clear coats. Again, the deep pores can harbor un-evaporated MS which can cause later problems.I did use mineral spirits on the panels after sanding to have a look at the grain for panel placement.

Try something for me. Wipe on some mineral spirits and see if the "white" goes away (make it pretty wet). There is the possibility that the flatters in the satin finish were not fully stirred into suspension. I did notice that after the poly application dried to the touch and the whote clouds appeared, when I wiped on some poly they disappeared and it looked fine but reappeared when the spirits dried.

Only problem with refinishing is that you have now partially filled the deep pores with finish. If you sand, and refinish, the areas you refinish will be smoother looking like you used filler on those parts. What ever you do, do it to only one door. That way you only have one to fix if things don't work.

This morning, I did give the panel's a light sanding. When I applied mineral spirits and all was ok (except for the fading color due to my sanding).

Pic after sanding....

Pic with the mineral spirits....

What really beats me is that I used exactly the same finishiong schedule for the top, and all is a-ok????

Thanks Howard for taking time out of your day for these suggestions to ny dilemma.

Much appreciated!

Wayne

 

[Canuck]

Well, I spent most of the day today sanding the old finish off of the panels. Started with 120G and progressed through to 200G.

I called Minwax support at their 1-800 number to also get their perspective.

They concluded my issue was with the stain application(s). I gave the panels two coats of stain about a week apart. But! When I wiped the panels after applying the stain apparently I didn't wipe them clean enough. (Directly eluding to your first post suggestion, Howard!) As a result, the underlying stain had not setup, which evidently spells disaster if I apply the poly too soon.:BangHead:

After my sanding exercise today (down to bare wood), I wiped on more stain. This time I kept rubbin' and wipin' until the clean dry cloth couldn't grab anymore off of the surface.

Tomorrow, I'll take a look and see if the color is ok to proceed with the poly again.

When I explained to the rep that this is the first issue I've seen, he responded that pretty much all woods absorb stain at a different rate and I may have been just lucky in the past.:dontknow:

Anyway, this is where I am at and will let you all know the outcome. (If you see a large plume of smoke rising over SE Cary, you will know that I failed again!)

Thanks guys for all of your input.

Wayne

 

[FredP]

Well, I spent most of the day today sanding the old finish off of the panels. Started with 120G and progressed through to 200G.

I called Minwax support at their 1-800 number to also get their perspective.

They concluded my issue was with the stain application(s). I gave the panels two coats of stain about a week apart. But! When I wiped the panels after applying the stain apparently I didn't wipe them clean enough. (Directly eluding to your first post suggestion, Howard!) As a result, the underlying stain had not setup, which evidently spells disaster if I apply the poly too soon.:BangHead:

After my sanding exercise today (down to bare wood), I wiped on more stain. This time I kept rubbin' and wipin' until the clean dry cloth couldn't grab anymore off of the surface.

Tomorrow, I'll take a look and see if the color is ok to proceed with the poly again.

When I explained to the rep that this is the first issue I've seen, he responded that pretty much all woods absorb stain at a different rate and I may have been just lucky in the past.:dontknow:

Anyway, this is where I am at and will let you all know the outcome. (If you see a large plume of smoke rising over SE Cary, you will know that I failed again!)

Thanks guys for all of your input.

Wayne

If you are having doubts wait longer......:wink_smil

 

[Gofor]

I can feel your pain! My guess is that it was something got on the panels after you stained them. I use pretty much the same technique you described, and have never (yet) had anything like that happen. Any stain that wasn't dry was readily evident by being sticky, etc. Even so, I never had the poly cure on top and not adhere to it. Nobody was around the stained panels spraying any air freshener, or other atomized cleaner, etc. before you did the assembly, were they?

The project is really looking good otherwise, tho. Hope the next coat works.

Go

 

[Howard Acheson]

I think you were/are dealing with two problems. One is the application and wipe-off of the excess stain. The stain should be wiped as dry as you can get it. With deep pored woods, you must go back and re-wipe a number of times as the oil in the stain will bleed-back.

The second possible problem is that the wipe-on finish may not have been thoroughly stirred and re-stirred every 5-10 minutes during application. The flatters that create the satin finish fall out of suspension. With finishes that are highly thinned like a wiping varnish, the flatters fall out quite rapidly. They must be continually re-stirred or you can begin to get a cloudy, gray appearance as the finish dries.

 

[Canuck]

I think you were/are dealing with two problems. One is the application and wipe-off of the excess stain. The stain should be wiped as dry as you can get it. With deep pored woods, you must go back and re-wipe a number of times as the oil in the stain will bleed-back.

The second possible problem is that the wipe-on finish may not have been thoroughly stirred and re-stirred every 5-10 minutes during application. The flatters that create the satin finish fall out of suspension. With finishes that are highly thinned like a wiping varnish, the flatters fall out quite rapidly. They must be continually re-stirred or you can begin to get a cloudy, gray appearance as the finish dries.

After I sanded and restained, I kept wiping until no more residue would appear on the clean cotton rag. It has been drying now for almost 24 hours. Think I will wait an addition 12-24 before I try the poly again. I have a couple of fans run in the shop as well to keep the air moving around.

And yes, I will certain that I try and keep the satin poly all shook up.

Thanks so much for your valued input, Howard! :icon_thum:icon_thum:icon_thum

(Oh BTW, the shellac over the stain on the insides worked like a dream. Little to no odor and the finish is smooth as silk!:eusa_danc)

Wayne

 

[Canuck]

It looks like I am finally meeting with some success!:icon_cheers:icon_cheers:icon_cheers

After the sanding, re-staining and a thorough drying, I have managed to lay down three coats of the same wiping varnish and it is behaving itself this time.

Close view of one of the panels....

Lesson(s) learned the hard way!!!!

Thanks everyone for all of your valued input. Won't make that mistake again.:cry_smile (Tough way to learn though.:wsad

 

[ScottM]

:icon_cheers

Don't you love happy endings :wsmile:

 

[Canuck]

Update.............

Finishing is finished and the toy box is ready for delivery. The end result is acceptable, I think, and besides it will probably need to be refinished in a few years anyway.

Completed box in this thread....

http://ncwoodworker.net/forums/showthread.php?t=36746

Thanks everyone once more for you help with this one!:wsmile:

Wayne

 

[richlife]

Update.............

Finishing is finished and the toy box is ready for delivery. The end result is acceptable, I think, and besides it will probably need to be refinished in a few years anyway.

Completed box in this thread....

http://ncwoodworker.net/forums/showthread.php?t=36746

Thanks everyone once more for you help with this one!:wsmile:

Wayne

Thanks for posting all this and keeping us up to date, Wayne. Although I've never experienced this problem, I'll certainly be more particular about wiping off any stains -- especially from the red oak that I use so frequently.

And this tip Howard provided about using a mineral spirits dampened clean cloth instead of tack cloth is invaluable for everyone. That should be posted somewhere as a sticky. So obvious, yet so easy to overlook.

Rich