Eco-friendly finishing

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Jeff

New User
Jeff
A fresh thought from this thread: http://www.ncwoodworker.net/forums/showthread.php?t=54053

Matt is building a walnut dining table and needs an eco-friendly, non-toxic finish for his growing family.

1. Pure tung oil and citrus solvent (instead of MS) is the starting point. Check it out on BW.

http://www.realmilkpaint.com/wood.html

http://www.realmilkpaint.com/oil.html

I think it looks pretty darn good for starters. It's an in-the-wood satin finish that should be easily maintained and repaired/recoated when necessary. I would not use a water-borne poly topcoat because it's a PITA to refinish and I just hate that glossy plastic look. :eek:

Any experience out there with this type of finishing?
 

red

Papa Red
Red
Senior User
I like the look of those wood samples especially the cherry. Could be a good go to finish.

Red
 

MattW

New User
MattW
I have really like the look of tung oil and danish oil on Walnut. I'm not sure what to use as a good, durable top coat. Preferably one that will not leave a glossy look.
 
OP
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J

Jeff

New User
Jeff
I'm not sure what to use as a good, durable top coat. Preferably one that will not leave a glossy look.

You have the recipe on both points.

1. Tung oil and citrus solvent. The table will get scratches and dings but touch up or entire recoating is easy and it'll look almost brand new.

2. No glossy look. Then omit the water-borne Ecos poly from your plan.

Heck, it's a dining table to be used by the family on a daily basis so why fret over a little wear and tear. It's a table, not an altar!
 

SubGuy

New User
Zach
Why not use standard finishes? After the volatiles have off-gassed, there is really no threat to transferring chemicals after they are cured. My go to is Tung Oil as I like the finish as well. I prefer Waterlox. Why is the citrus solvent so imperative? Full cure time is still 30 dayish. Once it's cured, where is the threat of the volatiles in normal Tung Oil finish at that point?

Anyway, I would also suggest a wax coat of "Bowling Alley" wax. You should look for the highest quality Carnauba Wax. It's is among the hardest of natural wax and it will go a long way at protecting your table. Just a word of advice, it too generally has some volatiles in it that gasses off as it dries. If you must stay away from those, you could use a wax to apply pure via friction and heat.
 

bluedawg76

New User
Sam
Several points:
1) tung oil is not much of a finish for a dining table. It will be heavily abused including stains and spills. YMMV. I would much prefer a film finish for such an application. If you go w/ tung oil, make sure it's not a product labeled tung oil finish which may or may not contain any tung oil.

2) All finishes are non-toxic once cured!

3) Poly looks like plastic when it's poorly done, but that's true of any finish. Due to poly's accessibility at the borg, it's frequently used by folks lacking experience. Thickly applied satin varnish of any type will undoubtedly give the plastic result. To say all poly finishes look like plastic is grossly overstated. I wish you'd stop saying this. I've seen many a waterlox finish that made me cringe and I realize it's not a bad product, just an inexperienced user.

4) General Finishes has some environmentally friendly finishes if that's what you're after.
 

Rick M

New User
Rick
by adding mineral spirits or turpentine, Pure Tung Oil becomes toxic with these substances mixed into it, although the finish produced is not toxic because the thinners evaporate.

From their own website.
 

petebucy4638

Pete
Corporate Member
There are some excellent hardwood flooring finishes that are water based. They are durable, you can pretty much select the level of reflection and they can be refinished without too much fuss. Klingspor stocks a lot of hardwood floor finishes.

Pete
 
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MattW

New User
MattW
I understand that most finishes are non-toxic after they dry. The concern is that I will be working in my garage, which is not well ventilated to begin with, and my pregnant wife will be in and out on a regular basis. After that, we'll be in and out of there with a newborn baby. Because of that, the fumes emitted while drying are a concern. Even if they aren't, my pregnant (i.e. hormonal) wife will think they are, and that's enough for me to try to avoid them if possible. If I can use products where toxic fumes are of no concern, everyone will be much happier, if not necessarily any healthier.

Bluedawg, can you suggest any reading material or videos on how to apply poly finish so it doesn't look like plastic?
 

Howard Acheson

New User
Howard
>>>> My go to is Tung Oil as I like the finish as well. I prefer Waterlox.

I'm a little confused. "Tung Oil" and "Waterlox" are two completely different finishes. Tung oil is one of a number of components in Waterlox, but Waterlox is an oil based varnish very similar to any other oil based varnishes.

Tung Oil is a finish that is absorbed into the wood while Waterlox is an on-the-surface film finish and therefore, much more durable and protective.
 

Jim Wallace

jimwallacewoodturning.com
Jim
Corporate Member
I've been using Waterlox for years as well. It's my favorite finish. The Tried and True, however, is a very nice finish if you're not looking for high shine, plus it's VOC free, in fact their website says it's safe even if ingested. Waterlox now makes a reduced or VOC-free finish to comply with California standards. I'm not sure if it's available in NC, but I'm pretty sure you can order it directly from them. I haven't tried it, but they're a very reputable company.
 

merrill77

Master Scrap Maker
Chris
How about spraying a thin coat of lacquer, in your driveway, in the morning on a clear day? It dries so fast - by evening, there will be virtually zero odor. Do that over a few days and you're done.

That will give you a durable finish that is easy to repair.
 

SubGuy

New User
Zach
From their MSDS Sheet:
NATIONAL REGULATIONS:
SARA 313
This product contains the following substances subject to the reporting requirements of Section 313 of
Title III of the Superfund Amendments and Reauthorization Act of 1986 and 40 CFR Part 372:
CHEMICAL NAME CAS NUMBER Wt % is less than
1,2,4 Trimethylbenzene 95-63-6 2.0
Ethylbenzene 100-41-4 0.2
Cobalt Naphthanate 6789-51-3 0.2
NEW JERSEY RIGHT – TO - KNOW
The following materials are non-hazardous, but are among the top five components in this product:
CHEMICAL NAME CAS NUMBER Page 6 of 6
Tung Oil 8001-20-5
Ester Gum 8050-31-5
Phenolic Resin 54579-44

From their product bulletin:
By definition, a varnish, with a few exceptions, contains resins as essential constituents. Further, varnishes
dry by the evaporation of its volatile constituents, by the oxidation or chemical reaction of other constituents
or partly by both. We view our Waterlox Original Tung oil finishes as ‘phenolic modified Tung oil-based
varnishes’. By design, our original formulas are low solids solutions (high solvent percentages), engineered
to offer the most desirable combination of wood penetration and protective film build. The solids portion of
our finishes is made up of 85% Tung oil and 15% resin, rosin and driers. While many make untrue product
claims, Waterlox has never made any claims that we manufacture anything but a varnish. Our varnish is
however a truly unique blend of Tung oil and resin that showcases the natural beauty of wood, providing
lasting, durable protection.

So it is a "Oil Based Varnish" that oil being 85% Tung Oil with phenolic modifiers which is what classifies it as a varnish because it the volatiles gas off and the phenolic resin hardens producing the durable finish. Does that make it not Tung Oil?

>>>> My go to is Tung Oil as I like the finish as well. I prefer Waterlox.

I'm a little confused. "Tung Oil" and "Waterlox" are two completely different finishes. Tung oil is one of a number of components in Waterlox, but Waterlox is an oil based varnish very similar to any other oil based varnishes.

Tung Oil is a finish that is absorbed into the wood while Waterlox is an on-the-surface film finish and therefore, much more durable and protective.
 

Rick M

New User
Rick
There are some "tung oil finishes" that do have any tung oil at all; at least Waterlox is honest. You can buy real tung oil but it takes a long time to cure without the added driers. I don't have the patience for something like that.
 
OP
OP
J

Jeff

New User
Jeff
A good discussion and thanks to all for adding your perspectives.

Matt has specific requirements for his finishing work that we may be overlooking

The concern is that I will be working in my garage, which is not well ventilated to begin with, and my pregnant wife will be in and out on a regular basis. After that, we'll be in and out of there with a newborn baby. Because of that, the fumes emitted while drying are a concern. Even if they aren't, my pregnant (i.e. hormonal) wife will think they are, and that's enough for me to try to avoid them if possible. If I can use products where toxic fumes are of no concern, everyone will be much happier, if not necessarily any healthier.

So it's not entirely about what are tung oil/linseed oil formulations and low VOC eco-friendly products.

1. Waterlox Original Sealer/Finish (#TB5284). It's about 24% tung oil and 76% solvent based (like MS).

http://www.waterlox.com/uploads/docs/Product_MSDS_TB-5284__634278234178023374.pdf

2. Waterlox Original Sealer/Finish-low VOC (#TB6038). About 20% tung oil but still has <15% naphtha. That's low VOC but not 0% VOC.

http://www.waterlox.com/uploads/docs/Product_MSDS_TB-6038__634278234676764965.pdf

3. Tried and True Original Wood Finish: Oxidized linseed oil and beeswax. 0% VOC.

http://go.rockler.com/tech/MSDS-ORIG-WOOD-FINISH--SKU-46915.pdf
 

Howard Acheson

New User
Howard
As I said, tung oil is a component of Waterlox varish. Any varnish is a mixture of a drying oil--in the case of Waterlox tung oil is the drying oil--and a resin. The two are mixed together and heated to a temperature where the two combine into a new chemical called varnish. It is no longer tung oil. Most other varnishes use linseed oil as their drying oil so why don't we call a varnish made with linseed oil "linseed" oil finish.

Think of bread. Bread is a mixture of a yeast and flour. They are mixed together and heated until they combine into a new item called bread. The two can no longer be separated into their initial component ingredients.
 

merrill77

Master Scrap Maker
Chris
Think of bread. Bread is a mixture of a yeast and flour. They are mixed together and heated until they combine into a new item called bread. The two can no longer be separated into their initial component ingredients.

I'll assume you're correct about the finish, but the flour/yeast/bread is not a good comparison. With the right equipment, I am sure you would be able to find the yeast. Some of the sugar (a critical ingredient missing from your recipe) would be missing, as it is oxidized by the yeast, releasing CO2 and energy. The flour is basically unchanged during the process.
 

bluedawg76

New User
Sam
I understand that most finishes are non-toxic after they dry. The concern is that I will be working in my garage, which is not well ventilated to begin with, and my pregnant wife will be in and out on a regular basis. After that, we'll be in and out of there with a newborn baby. Because of that, the fumes emitted while drying are a concern. Even if they aren't, my pregnant (i.e. hormonal) wife will think they are, and that's enough for me to try to avoid them if possible. If I can use products where toxic fumes are of no concern, everyone will be much happier, if not necessarily any healthier.

Bluedawg, can you suggest any reading material or videos on how to apply poly finish so it doesn't look like plastic?

Two important points about avoiding plastic look - 1) knowing when you have sufficient build of the finish (i.e. how many coats?). Look for an even sheen in raking (low angle) light. At that point, I may do one more (thin) coat. 2) irrespective of your final/preferred sheen, use gloss for every coat but your last. The alternative is to use steel wool to knock the gloss down to a satin sheen. The other thing I will add is that I prefer a wipe-on varnish (i.e. thinned) vs. full-strength. It takes more coats but the control is worth it to me.

I'd probably just find an acceptable way to deal w/ the fumes. Note that there are water-based finishes (polycrylic and polyurethane). Although I haven't used it, Endurovar Water-based poly from General Finishes may worth checking out. I've used their other products and been pleased.

If you haven't read it, Bob Flexner's book on Understanding Wood Finishes is a good read.

If you go the wipe-on varnish (oil-based only!) route, I found the following post taken verbatim from Howard Acheson on how to apply a wipe-on varnish to be helpful. Note diluting a varnish w/ mineral spirits increases the VOCs which is why the label says not to do it.


There are a number of suggested application regimens that are totally subjective. The number of coats in a given day, the % of cut on various coats, which coat to sand after, when to use the blade and a whole host of other practices are all minor differences between finishers. There are some things that I consider sacred when applying a wipe-on finish.

First, you can use any full strength oil based clear finish. Polyurethane varnish or non-poly varnish is fine.

If you are making your own wipe-on the mix is scientific - thin. I suggest 50/50 with mineral spirits because it is easier to type than any other ratio and easy to remember. Some finish formulators have jumped on the bandwagon and you can now get "wipe on" finish pre-mixed. If you use a pre-mixed, thinning is generally not necessary. But making your own is cheaper and you know what's in it.

The number of coats in a given day is not important. Important is to apply a wet coat with an applicator and merely get it on. Think of a 16 year old kid working as a busboy at Denny's you have sent over to wipe off a table. Sort of rub/swirl the the material on like you would if you were applying a paste wax. Don't attempt any straight strokes. The applicator should be wet but not soaked. The applicator can be a non-embossed paper towel shop towel, half a T-shirt sleeve or that one sock left after a load of washing. Once applied,leave it alone. The surface should not be glossy or wet looking and, if applied correctly, there should be no "brush stroke" type marks. If you have missed a spot, ignore it - you will get it on the next coat. If you try and fix a missed spot you will leave a mark in the finish.

Timing for a second coat involves the pinkie test. Touch the surface with your pinkie. If nothing comes off you are ready for another coat. If was tacky 5 minutes ago but not now, apply your next coat just as you applied the previous coat. Remember, you are wet wiping, not flooding. After applying the second coat, let it fully dry for 48 hours. Using 320 paper and a sanding block lightly sand the surface flat. Now, begin applying more coats. Do not sand between coats unless you have allowed more than 24 hours to elapse since the prior coat. The number of coats is not critical - there is no critical or right number to apply. For those who need a rule, four more coats on non-critical surfaces or six more coats on surfaces that will get abraded seems to work.

After your last coat has dried at least over night you will have boogers in the surface. You should not have marks in the surface because you ignored application flaws. You may have dust, lint and, if you live in Texas, bug legs. Use a utility knife blade at this point. Hold it between your thumb and forefinger, near the vertical, and gently scrape the surface. Gentle is the important word - no harder than you would scrape your face. If you start scraping aggressively you will leave small cut marks in the surface. After you have scraped to the baby butt stage gently abrade the surface with 320 dry paper or a gray ScotchBrite. Clean off the surface. Now, leave the area for two hours and change your clothes. Apply your last coat with a bit more care than the previous coats and walk away.

An anal person is going to have a tough time with this process. Missed spots have to be ignored. Wet wipe, don't flood. Scraping to babies butt smooth means scraping no harder than scraping a babies butt. Ignoring any of these will leave marks that are tough to get out. Getting these marks out requires some aggressive sanding to flatten out the surface and starting over.
 
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