Well guys...I need some guidance about a well. I am feeling quite defeated.

[junquecol]

(6 x 6 x 3.142 - 2 X 2 x 3.142)/4 x 198 x 12 = close to 60,000 cubic inches.

60,000/231 = 260 gallons

Now if that was in millimeters, and meters and liters, I could have done it without a calculator in 30 seconds.

Don't forget that his well has a four inch liner installed, which is surrounded by a gravel pack.

 

[Willemjm]

Don't forget that his well has a four inch liner installed, which is surrounded by a gravel pack.

LOL, you have more information than I have. So we have to replace the sixes, with fours?

 

[petebucy4638]

This problem should not really be that difficult to sort out electrically. The first test that I would do would be to put a clamp meter on each leg of the 240v conductors and see how many amps they are each drawing. If there is a damaged conductor, one leg should be drawing considerably less current than the other leg. If that is the case, then the conductor(s) should be replaced or repaired. If both legs are drawing current as per the specs for the pump when it is running, then you can probably rule out an electrical problem with the pump.

 

[junquecol]

LOL, you have more information than I have. So we have to replace the sixes, with fours?

Post #7, line # 2

 

[spartyon8]

Sorry for the late response but all is “well”. God was looking down on me as I was having a mental breakdown over this Tuesday evening. One of my wife’s childhood friends reached out saying he took over the family plumbing business, my wife knew the dad retired but didn’t think the boys followed in that direction. He showed up unannounced and I had water in 10 minutes. He told me that I did everything correctly with one exception, I never checked for continuity with the pump IN the well. He said to always check the wire with your fingers and never your eyes. He found a small pebble that had wedged itself under the original tape holding the wire to the piping. That one hidden pebble was enough to cause all of my headaches. I want to thank everyone for trying to help me out!

 

[ScottM]

Sorry for the late response but all is “well”. God was looking down on me as I was having a mental breakdown over this Tuesday evening. One of my wife’s childhood friends reached out saying he took over the family plumbing business, my wife new the dad retired but didn’t think the boys followed in that direction. He showed up unannounced and I had water in 10 minutes. He told me that I did everything correctly with one exception, I never checked for continuity with the pump IN the well. He said to always check the wire with your fingers and never your eyes. He found a small pebble that had wedged itself under the original tape holding the wire to the piping. That one hidden pebble was enough to cause all of my headaches. I want to thank everyone for trying to help me out!

Happy endings are always the best.

 

[Willemjm]

Sorry for the late response but all is “well”. God was looking down on me as I was having a mental breakdown over this Tuesday evening. One of my wife’s childhood friends reached out saying he took over the family plumbing business, my wife knew the dad retired but didn’t think the boys followed in that direction. He showed up unannounced and I had water in 10 minutes. He told me that I did everything correctly with one exception, I never checked for continuity with the pump IN the well. He said to always check the wire with your fingers and never your eyes. He found a small pebble that had wedged itself under the original tape holding the wire to the piping. That one hidden pebble was enough to cause all of my headaches. I want to thank everyone for trying to help me out!

Good to know you are back in business.

But I am lost as to a wire and a pebble causing an issue???
So are you saying for 240V one of the hot wires was broken, or not connected and the disconnected wires were taped?

 

[junquecol]

Sorry for the late response but all is “well”. God was looking down on me as I was having a mental breakdown over this Tuesday evening. One of my wife’s childhood friends reached out saying he took over the family plumbing business, my wife knew the dad retired but didn’t think the boys followed in that direction. He showed up unannounced and I had water in 10 minutes. He told me that I did everything correctly with one exception, I never checked for continuity with the pump IN the well. He said to always check the wire with your fingers and never your eyes. He found a small pebble that had wedged itself under the original tape holding the wire to the piping. That one hidden pebble was enough to cause all of my headaches. I want to thank everyone for trying to help me out!

Guess you didn't read my post # 26. Based upon many years of experiene installing pumps.

 

[spartyon8]

At the top my multimeter still read 240 as it adds both lines together. There is a setting that I was unaware of to check for continuity. It sends a signal down one line and it should return through the other wire. In the well, the signal never returned. Plumber told me that all that power was being fed into the water and dispersing rather than to the motor. Out of the well, he ran that same test and it returned the signal. A small cut in the insulation of the wire was enough to short the entire loop. At least, that was how it was explained to me…and it makes complete sense. My visual inspection never saw that. It took feeling the wire with a finger to find it. We splice the wire at the spot and had water.

 

[spartyon8]

Guess you didn't read my post # 26. Based upon many years of experiene installing pumps.

That is kind of correct. I read it but thought continuity as in they both had power feeding in. I was unaware of the setting on the multimeter to check the loop. I feel good because now I know how to use that function and that my overall steps were correct up until that point. I learned something which I feel better about more so that the water. A sense of accomplishment if you will.

 

[charlessenf]

"... If you drop an empty pump and pipe into the well it may displace the water up the column causing a theoretical 6" x 200 foot of water column. This may calculate to 300 gals but remove the 2" diameter of air and tubing (which is where the 200 ' or so is based on) and you end up with more like 160 gals. "

Wait a darned minute there - if I have a container almost full (short by 30ft) of liquid and I put 250 feet of something in that container - displacing the liquid, the liquid does not evaporate, it climbs the walls of the container (well) leaving exactly the same quantity of liquid in the container (less any overflow). Or am I missing something? Well, I suppose that over time the displaced liquid in a well shaft would disperse into the pool of water the shaft was sunk into - so there's that.

 

[charlessenf]

(6 x 6 x 3.142 - 2 X 2 x 3.142)/4 x 198 x 12 = close to 60,000 cubic inches.

60,000/231 = 260 gallons

Now if that was in millimeters, and meters and liters, I could have done it without a calculator in 30 seconds.

isn't that supposed to be pi r square = area? And a Six -inch diameter pipe has a three-inch radius (same applies using the Metric System, no?)
A = π2

 

[charlessenf]

This is probably a Captain Obvious question, but when you say you have 28psi at the tank, is it a bladder tank and are you checking that at the bladder? Because that pressure reading only tells you the air pressure in the bladder and not the water pressure in the tank, as they do not cross over. 28 psi would be about right for bladder pressure on a 30/50 switch setting but if the pup isn't working then you will have 0 psi on the water itself.

What? I have a pressure tank with the gauge and switch mounted in the standard configuration and, if I turn off my pump and drain the system by opening the lowest valve in my system as OP stated, my gauge is going to read Zero PSI (unless it is broken and stuck!)

You read the BLADDER PRESSURE at the air valve at the top of the pressure tank and the WATER PRESSURE off the gauge in the WATER LINE. Take away the water and the Gauge reads Zero PSI.

Question: Is it the PUMP or is it the WIRING*?

I would think that one could bring the original (three-wire, external capacitor pump into the house and wire it directly to the pressure switch (eliminating the entire run of conductors between house and well) set it in a bucket and flip the breaker.
If the motor runs, the wiring is suspect.
If the motor does not run, replace the pump with the same pump.

We need a FLOW CHART here to track all the suggestions mentioned and tried/ignored. It's tough keeping track.

The idea of a broken conductor between the top of the well and the connection to the pump works if the point of intermittent failure lies up at the splice or down at the point of attachment to the pump itself unless solid wire (as opposed to stranded) was used when the well as installed. Wires are crimped together at the splice and crimped into fittings that are fastened onto the pump and subject to corrosion. However, if you are testing continuity and voltage with the wires out of the well, one would be surprised to find such a failure was not manifested given all the times (if I understand the number of times these conductors have been removed and reinserted down the shaft) continuity, voltage and pumps were tested 'above ground.'

* Or, in a three-wire system, the CAPACITOR is essential to starting the pump. However, the OP seemed to indicate that he tried a TWO-WIRE pump as well.

 

[charlessenf]

So we have to replace the sixes, with fours?

Nope, TWOSEES - 'cause Pie Are Square!

Six-inch pipe 6=D; 3=r; Four inch pipe 4=D; 2=r

250 ft of 6"D pipe = (250* 12 inches) * (π*9) = cu in = etc.
250 ft of 4"D pipe = (250* 12 inches) * (π*4) = cu in = etc.

 

[junquecol]

That is kind of correct. I read it but thought continuity as in they both had power feeding in. I was unaware of the setting on the multimeter to check the loop. I feel good because now I know how to use that function and that my overall steps were correct up until that point. I learned something which I feel better about more so that the water. A sense of accomplishment if you will.

Don't throw away the old pump, as it's most likely still good. As for water corroding connections, I bet your friend used heat shrink butt connectors, hence no water in splice. Years, and I mean many years ago, Meyers sent butt connectors that were totally bare. The conector was slide into a plastic tub, with screw on ends, which had a rubber grommet to seal them. Never took one apart that didn't have water in if. No worry as electricity seeks the path of least resistance, the windings of the pump motor. Here's something for thought. Submersible pump motors are water lubricated. The end bells contain a graphite or carbon bearing and the housing of the pump lets water into it. The field winding are sealed inside a SS sleeve, so no water gets to them. Unfortunately, what you needed to know first is what you learned last. I know your wife is HAPPY!! Happy wife, happy life!

 

[charlessenf]

Good to know you are back in business.

But I am lost as to a wire and a pebble causing an issue???
So are you saying for 240V one of the hot wires was broken, or not connected and the disconnected wires were taped?

Guess you didn't read my post # 26. Based upon many years of experience installing pumps.

OP: "There is a setting that I was unaware of to check for continuity. It sends a signal down one line and it should return through the other wire. In the well, the signal never returned. Plumber told me that all that power was being fed into the water and dispersing rather than to the motor. Out of the well, he ran that same test and it returned the signal. A small cut in the insulation of the wire was enough to short the entire loop."

I think we have an issue with semantics. I found one definition: "Continuity testing overview: Continuity is the presence of a complete path for current flow."

For this, I would use an Ohmmeter (someone mentioned this earlier). If there is continuity in a wire, touching the Ohmmeter's probes to the ends of that wire (conductor) will give a reading of (or near) Zero.

So, in the instant case, since neither conductor was 'broken,' touching the probes to the two conductors with the pump in or out of the well would always read Zero - thus conductivity.

What the OP described was a BREAK IN THE INSULATION that effectively SHORTED one leg to GROUND.

We need to ask his PLUMBER, but I think that folks were measuring the voltage across the 220 legs and not between the neutral and each leg as well.

If I understand the OP's explanation of the PLUMBER's explanation, one would have gotten different readings from each leg when the pump was submerged (first time the OP checked the VOLTAGE) as opposed to when the pump (and exposed conductor) were removed from the well. Or, with a clamp-on ammeter checking the respective legs when the pump and wires were submerged.

If the OP is reading this, please ask the PLUMBER (copy and paste this into an email to him?) as I have spent quite a bit of my time reading forty odd posts (some not so odd) and would love to learn if a test at the pressure switch would have detected the Ground Fault found in that one leg of the well pump wiring before pulling the pump to confirm!

What a story!

 

[charlessenf]

"Guess you didn't read my post # 26. Based upon many years of experiene installing pumps."

I did. No matter how many times you tested "CONTINUITY" of the circuit you would not find a leak to ground in either leg or the circuit. If you tested the continuity of each leg from breaker to pump - same thing. There was CONTINUITY and a SHORT to ground. I think you would have needed an ammeter to compare the legs - but might have spotted a problem if you had measured each leg against the ground as the shorted (submerged and exposed) leg might have given a different result from the unexposed leg - not certain of this at the moment.

 

[junquecol]

I did. No matter how many times you tested "CONTINUITY" of the circuit you would not find a leak to ground in either leg or the circuit. If you tested the continuity of each leg from breaker to pump - same thing. There was CONTINUITY and a SHORT to ground. I think you would have needed an ammeter to compare the legs - but might have spotted a problem if you had measured each leg against the ground as the shorted (submerged and exposed) leg might have given a different result from the unexposed leg - not certain of this at the moment.

A 3/4 HP Franklin motor (most common brand) will show around 6-8 ohms of resistance, and a 1/2 HP will show around 5 ohms.. When measured at the top of the well, if you don't see these readings, then there is a problem. Anything lower indicates a short in the motor. No reading indicates an open circuit. A clamp on amp meter is useless for finding this problem, but it could be used to detect either a locked rotor, or broken drop pipe.

 

[charlessenf]

A 3/4 HP Franklin motor (most common brand) will show around 6-8 ohms of resistance, and a 1/2 HP will show around 5 ohms.. When measured at the top of the well, if you don't see these readings, then there is a problem. Anything lower indicates a short in the motor. No reading indicates an open circuit. A clamp on amp meter is useless for finding this problem, but it could be used to detect either a locked rotor, or broken drop pipe.

I found this page interesting if not definitive - it also talks about typical resistance values and a diagnostic repair manual. I still would like to talk to his plumber! How'd he think to look for a break in the insulation. Did he perform a test?

Water Pump Wiring Troubleshooting & Repair Pump Wiring Diagrams (Note what he starts with!)

There are at least two common electrical tests:

1. A test of the pump wiring itself for deteriorated or damaged insulation (low resistance), breaks (infinite resistance), and dead shorts to ground (zero or close to zero resistance)

2. A test of the pump motor windings for evidence of wear or shorts (abnormally low resistance)

Tests of the pump wiring are made by individually connecting between each wire (at the well head) and ground.

If the well casing is metal then connect the ground lead of the VOM/DMM (be sure it's a good clean connection) to the well casing or metal piping). If the well casing is plastic then you have to connect your ground lead to the circuit ground.

. . .

Goulds Pumps, an ITT company, offers an excellent submersible well pump diagnostic and service manual.

• SINGLE PHASE PUMP SERVICE MANUAL [PDF] (2005) Goulds, ITT, Website: www.goulds.com available from the company or free as a download at InspectApedia

See pages 24 and 25 therein for notes on how to make a resistance check of the pump wires.

• Or in general, with the motor in the well you will see 0.5 to 2.0 MegOhms resistance (500,000 to 2,000,000 Ohms).
• If the well pump motor has been damaged Goulds notes that you will see much lower resistance, maybe in the 10,000 to 20,000 Ohms range
• If the well pump motor is dead or the wiring insulation has been destroyed you will see less than 10,000 Ohms resistance.

You can also check resistance between each lead and ground - and to the well casing as sometimes that will show up a short not between wires but between one wire and ground.

 

[Gotcha6]

What? I have a pressure tank with the gauge and switch mounted in the standard configuration and, if I turn off my pump and drain the system by opening the lowest valve in my system as OP stated, my gauge is going to read Zero PSI (unless it is broken and stuck!)

You read the BLADDER PRESSURE at the air valve at the top of the pressure tank and the WATER PRESSURE off the gauge in the WATER LINE. Take away the water and the Gauge reads Zero PSI.

Question: Is it the PUMP or is it the WIRING*?

I would think that one could bring the original (three-wire, external capacitor pump into the house and wire it directly to the pressure switch (eliminating the entire run of conductors between house and well) set it in a bucket and flip the breaker.
If the motor runs, the wiring is suspect.
If the motor does not run, replace the pump with the same pump.

We need a FLOW CHART here to track all the suggestions mentioned and tried/ignored. It's tough keeping track.

The idea of a broken conductor between the top of the well and the connection to the pump works if the point of intermittent failure lies up at the splice or down at the point of attachment to the pump itself unless solid wire (as opposed to stranded) was used when the well as installed. Wires are crimped together at the splice and crimped into fittings that are fastened onto the pump and subject to corrosion. However, if you are testing continuity and voltage with the wires out of the well, one would be surprised to find such a failure was not manifested given all the times (if I understand the number of times these conductors have been removed and reinserted down the shaft) continuity, voltage and pumps were tested 'above ground.'

* Or, in a three-wire system, the CAPACITOR is essential to starting the pump. However, the OP seemed to indicate that he tried a TWO-WIRE pump as well.

Bladder tanks will have a Schrader valve at the top to charge the bladder itself to a pressure close to the cut-in pressure of the switch allowing for maximum storage. They would not usually have a gauge on them and are checked with a tire gauge. As far as the displacement issue, anyone who has pulled a submersible pump can tell you that the pump has a check valve at the discharge which opens when it is submerged initially allowing water to fill the discharge pipe as it is lowered into the well. That's also the reason they can be so difficult to pull because they will be full of water. No worries about the water overflowing out of the well on this. As for the bladder tanks, they will merely pass the air in the riser pipe when the well is first installed onto the water lines to be bled out when you get a drink of water in your good suit....

Glad to know you found the problem and are back in business. Had us all worried for awhile there.