Starting over on dust collection

tvrgeek

Scott
Corporate Member
Not the battery, so just "great" Chinese quality. I can divide by three and move on.

Proof of concept. Going to pick up a longer section before I make the inlet adapter plates.

Amazon says " delayed in transit", no details. That means they missed the contract delivery last night and put it in the mail. So USPS and who knows when I will bet my next day delivery.
 

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tvrgeek

Scott
Corporate Member
Tool use testing:
My Ridgid jointer seems to do just fine with the 4 inch port going into a single 2 1/2 at the Fein collector running a 4 inch board. If a wider board or deeper cut, going to two would seem quite useable. No debris in the flex hose. It worked fine on a 4 inch branch on the CV1700.

DeWalt 13 inch planer. Note this has the boost fan in it as I never did the overhead duct conversion. The fan seems to have a higher CFM than the vac and quite a bit of pressure by how much it blew through the Ridgid vas that was not on but the Fein was. Planeing the 4 inch 1/64 on a single vac, again seems fine but really looks like the cyclone is at max. I think going to two cyclones would work fine. Again, no debris in the hose so chips remain airborne. It worked fine in the CV1700.

Harvey Band saw. It is a little modified with extra flow control around the lower guide and inside the cabinet. One line going to just the upper guide port did OK on the table top, but a lot of dust in the cabinets. Second vac to the lower port and it did very close to the big ClearVue. I think a little more careful work on my baffles it will be sufficient. I would say the "spray" from entering a slab is 10 times the dust that drops out from the top ( going all the way around) and lower cabinet accumulation combined. A 3 motor setup I think would do excellently and match the CV performance. 2 motors was not quite on par.

Ridgid belt and HF disk sanders with slight modifications work way better on a single vac line. They need high lift.

Router table is next. I have to do some thinking about how to test the table saw main cabinet. I can test the over-arm easily. I am ignoring the Kapex for now. It may be hopeless. I want to know if I get any dust fall-out in a long 4 inch pipe when using my ROS. Volume will be necessarily low. This use may be better served with a bleeder so the collector can pull it's max volume.

I can use my small scoop to test the DeWalt jig saw. On a 2 1/2 hose, it worked sort of on the big CV. I don't have an easily positional goose-neck for it. I should. It makes dust, but doesn't seem to blow it around too much. It could be putting the scoop below the table is even better.

So far, still leaning in favor of 3 or maybe 4 high lift blowers. Each winds up pulling about 110 CFM in real use. This is way below some machine recommended airflow, but those numbers are based on a low lift system. SOP on a table saw is about 800, but that is considering the horrible design of most saws. Those of you with newer saws, like the PCS may do much better than my old style cabinet. I am going to ignore the large dust dropout in the cabinet. Think of it like a first stage baffle box. * My concern is with the exit to the top and any airborne fines. I am anticipating the overarm to take care of both issues. My CV is on a 30A 220, so I can split that and run 4 blowers.

The tool I don't have is an air particle meter. Unfortunate as that is the real truth I want to know.

*I have an idea how to make it into a cleanout tray that can be removed and dumped rather than vacuum it out. Maybe too much trouble than it's worth.
 

Henry W

Henry
Corporate Member
The tool I don't have is an air particle meter. Unfortunate as that is the real truth I want to know.

Soctt - I have been following your journey here and love your critical thinking and assessment, and actual measurements. THanks.
Particle counts are what I hope is a next step.

Agree that It is high time we start to understand the "real issues": broadly
1. Messiness of saw dust & chips: inconvenient but not dangerous, and for me I can live with this.
2. Airborne particulates: also inconvenient, but much harder to deal with.

I'd love to see air particle measurements done in real shops - before a task (sanding or planing or ...), during the task, and then at specified periods (15 min, 60 min, 3 hours etc).
I'd love to know how much air cleaners make any difference (in real time and after a session)
I'd love to know the range of particle sizes created by different tools: sanders intuitively seem like the worst culprit for small particle creation, whereas jointers & planers (&routers?) seems like chip producers with lower particle counts likely (but for all i know these produce both chips and particles). Chisels and planes producing shavings seem like the best possible case for low particle count production - but who really knows?

I have never understood how 'chip free cabinet' in a TS is any indication of a good result. Of course it means you don't have to clean up in there occasionally, but is this clean cabinet any indication of efficiency of 'capturing' particles? I'd like to know.
I have a Contractors Saw (open) so there is no chip-free cabinet for me. Dust shroud under the blade makes sense to me though. I do use a shop vac on my crude shop made overhead guard on the TS and like it.
Shop vac use on hand held sanders and a crude 6" line bigger DC system on my 6x48" belt sander - moderately effective.
 

tvrgeek

Scott
Corporate Member
Difference with the SawStop large over-arm:
Using a single vac compared to connection to the CV1700 in normal configuration. Note the SS arm reduces from 4 at the inlet to 3 inches at the guard. Leakage sitting at the back shows about 100 CFM for the vac, 110 for the big system. Doing a rip of just under one blade width, the worst for top side spay, I give the edge to the CV but barely. One would have to find a way to collect and weigh. Far more significant was the addition of the door sweep to the blade guard. It made a several times difference. I also believe further modifications to the guard, or possibly interchangeable ones, would make a much bigger difference. Most guards seem to have their port to the far side yet spray patterns tend to be forward. If using a high lift vac, a narrower guard might give better performance on some cuts. One of the mods I want to make is some sort of rack and pinion to move the guard right and left depending on the cut and blade. I have to fiddle with it now.

Now, this blade guard is in the way of any sled or miter gauge. It is only useable for rips. Splines on frames maybe. For that, my scoop I set in the path of the spray works pretty well.

Particle counters range from $200 to $20,000. Probably not in the budget and I don't know enough about them to have a clue what specs are relevant. Anyone with experience here, or one to loan, please chime in. :) They are the ground truth that really matters.

I run MERV 15 filters on my mini-split , fan always on, and my DIY ambient cleaner from an old furnace blower. The filters load up only about twice a year if that says anything to my overall dust load. My house is worse.

The worst offenders for small dust is MDF. Machine or hand. Any sanding would come close. I hope my planes and chisels never produce dust. Even my card scrapers as that meand they are too dull to use. Handsaws in real wood dust is larger. I have looked at the shavings from my jointer and planer, both with carbide heads, and there are some fines in it, but not much. Onn the DeWalt planer, I am not positive hooking up a system is any better than just a bag or garbage can with angled port. The internal fan seems very powerful.

That observation leads to the question of push vs pull. Maybe in some instances, a local blower might be better.

At least my lathe is getting some use with the new Rikon carbide tools. Cutting down 2 inch PVC to fit into shop vac 2 1/4 ports.

Off to buy more test materials. I need a long run of 4 inch PVC to see if the very low flow through an ROS has dropout or if I need to run ports in 2 inch as well. My current config, the Fein is under the bench and I just hook a hose there.
 

Henry W

Henry
Corporate Member
I have pondered adding brushes to the bottom of my guard, but never thought of door sweeps. That's exactly what I need to do. Since I use my TS to rip primarily, this will make a big difference.
Cross cuts and sleds are an issue - I do occasionally use a cross cut sled or miter guage on TS.

Push vs pull - an interesting Q, but one that actually leaves us with very few options - as the push option likely needs to be within the tool.

THankkfully - MDF does not usually appear in my shop (of course except when it does!).
 

tvrgeek

Scott
Corporate Member
A lot of PM 2.5 monitors but so far, nothing on which are any good. A few identified as pretty much bogus. PM .3 ( HEPA) may be way out of reach. I suspect there is a reason the Fluke is $6K and Amazon is $49. I think all the cheap ones use the same sensor. Anyway, I conclude that if a change lowers the 2.5 reading, that means it is moving the right air so the smaller stuff will get picked up too. It should come Saturday if Amazon does not put it in the mail and USPS looses it. I have had that happen four times now.

Did some sanding with the ROS through a 10 foot 4 inch PVC pipe to see if the dust remains airborne in the pipe. Some accumulation from static. A more valid test will be to use it upright with a lower stub and sand a lot more. A lot. The question is if I need to run a 2 inch system for sanders using one motor and a 4 inch system for chips running multiple motors or if the one 4 inch will do. Leaving if I still need the 6 inch ClearVue as a question.

Mixed results on the table saw. Not sure for my saw even a 3 motor vac system will work better. If I made a shroud or my idea of focused cross feed, not sure the motor would get any cooling. To make one, I'd have to pull the top off which means rails, fences, outfeed... Massive project.

Noticeable differences have been more in modifying the machines and use of the correct technology. I can detect airflow from the line of holes I drilled just to the left of where the blade enters the throat plate, but did not see any of the half kerf spray enter. Going to modify another ZCI with bigger diagonal slots, AKA "Hooked On Wood" for that specific rip task. All other cuts they would be blocked. There may be room to actually attach a hose there. Suck, suck suck. Yea, watched "Spaceballs" again last night.

Running out of cutoffs. Had to start cutting up a 2 x 4.

The Ridgid shop vac has 2 1/4 port on the output so I can give the cross-feed a try on the band saw. Could not do it with the Fein as it has a grill for the output. Think of a pipe in a loop with the vac and the blade running through it. Maybe close to twice the PSI to blow the dust out of the gullets. This would be so much better if it was cast into the table! Another place for ports on the BS is in the fence right behind the blade. This would be to catch the initial spray when the blade enters the work. It would be covered up after that and maybe help hold work against the fence if it had enough vacuum.

So testing and modifying everything at once. What a mess, but the question has to look at everything as a whole as I don;t have the 3-motor Record to do direct comparisons. Until I understand and pick the technology, any given end point can't really be optimized. Improved, which validates the direction, but not optimized.

Thankfully, my stacks of hardwood greatly outnumber my remaining MDF. Foreseeable projects all use "real wood".

I have started mapping out a controller system based on magnetic reed switches on the blast gates. Depending on which gate is opened, it will know which and how many of a multiple motor to run. Simple diode logic and a few relays to control high power contactors. If I keep the big CV cyclone, I may hardwire the same way instead of the RF remote which seems weak and does not like it my control box is on the wrong side of a wall. If I am clever, I can even use one lead as ground and wrap it around the PVC as a static drain.

I need some liquid bread to assist my free thinking before tomorrows testing. A porter seems about right.
 

tvrgeek

Scott
Corporate Member
"Lost package" just got delivered. I will say the new orange 2 1/2 inch valve looks very good. Seals tight. Only use will say if it ever gets clogged up like the black ones do.

A couple concerns that need testing. For space, it would be nice to move a vac system into my storage attic. But that means lifting chips about 12 feet. Dust not too worried, but heavier chips, not sure. One solution would be to put the cyclone (s) down low and only the vac's up top. Need to test. Another possible issue is duty cycle. Shop vacs and even the CamVac are not 100% duty cycle. My big ClearVue is. I have to think, what do I ever do that I run a system over an hour? Sanding one could rotate which motor was on. Milling piles of stock? Now that may be an issue.

Thinking about the table saw, if I rely on the over arm, drop plate for the sled, and small magnetic scoop for tenon and spline jigs, then the lower volume in the cabinet is not optimum, but probably does not matter. It won't be contributing to ambient small particles.
 

tvrgeek

Scott
Corporate Member
Making 2 inch PCV fit

Pretty convinced I will be switching to a 3-motor Record Power. The higher lift solves all the issues with my hand tools, spindle and disk sander, OK with my small jointer and planer and looks to be on par with some end point mods to the BS and TS.

I will be doing twin ductwork in order to guarantee velocity depending on how many motors are running. 2 inch and 4 inch PVC. The 2 inch will be connected to one cyclone, and the 4 to the other two. Outputs of the cyclones merged into the Record. For most tools, I will use one or the other, but the TS the 2 inch will go to the over-arm and the 4 to a added internal focused pickup. You may wonder why not just 4 inch? With small tools like a ROS, velocity is almost nothing and I do not want any dust drop out in the line. I want to keep it airborne and there will be some vertical runs. I tested with a 10 foot 4 inch pipe feeding it 2 feet up, and when done, had dust in the bottom.

OK, how to make these fit with dust collector fittings, gates, hoses etc? Well PVC is a thermoplastic and easily machines.

To fit onto the sanders ports designed for 2 1/2 hose, I just made a tapered adapter thinning both the inside and outside of a short length of pipe. Outside for a tight friction fit, inside to reduce as much as possible any protruding edge. Even with the high lift, no reason to have step down edges that will cause turbulence and reduce flow. To fit the pipe ID to standard DC fittings I made a swage. A bit of heat gun, slip in the swage and it matches the orange blast gates. A rubber 2 inch splice boot fits over with a little soapy water. Snug and smooth.
Below are samples and a pictures on why the swaging is beneficial. Note, going the other way, a step to a larger diameter in a high vacuum line is not so bad. The new orange gate relies on being fixed to the lines as there is no easy flange to bolt it to. It is less obstructed when open and they claim the little ridge keeps dust from accumulating.

Ordered a new DustDeupty 2.5 to test. Pretty sure I'll run three of these.
 

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tvrgeek

Scott
Corporate Member
Cooking breakfast, my stove faces a passthrough so backlit, I can see the smallest of smoke & grease as it filters up to the hood. I have a 450 CFM hood, 8 inch duct. Even on low speed, the airflow is clearly up and out. This is encouraging for a miter saw hood as the "light" air with the fine dust will follow into the hood even if heavier dust still has to be cleaned up. If big dust falls out of the air that fast, you are not breathing it and the in-between size your lungs are designed to deal with. Is the answer for a miter saw nothing more than a decent kitchen hood ducted outside and a broom? Not as clumsy as all the fence port ideas.

This is going to take a while. I have not decided if the cyclones go in the loft with a long dump tube, or high on the wall. The vac runs off 220, so that is not a problem to run three of them. I think I'll make the collection bin out of a SONO tube. Vac can will be in the loft and the exhaust feeding a plenum with HEPA filters. True 99.7% .3 micron HEPA. Not the SOP MERV 15 85% @ .5 micron many venders suggest is HEPA. Return air back down the staircase. Should be much quieter too.
 

tvrgeek

Scott
Corporate Member
Started installing the 2 inch lines. Particle detector came but it says it can take 3 days to settle down after being powered off. PM readings are zero.
Dust Deputy 2.5 came so I can compare it to the Clear Vue mini.
 

tvrgeek

Scott
Corporate Member
Air quality readings:
Got the meter and plugged it in by my desk. Readings of 10u, 2.5 and 1 u/m3 were all zero. Made me wonder if ti was working.
Took it to the shop. Still all zero. do I took out the leaf blower to dislodge some dust. It did spike into the teens for 2.5. Seems quite low as one could smell the dust. How to reference? Went to Acuweather and got todays last hour AQI for Hillsborough. 2.5 listed as 5u, 10 as 13u. Outside the meter reads 4 and 1 respectively. As I am not up on a pole in the center of town, I guess I can believe it. I don;t believe the zero readings, but it could be one has to go to a meter costing 100's of times as much. Heck, if my house air was really that clean, I would not have to dust every week.

Feedback from the vender and it said it does not really take that long to settle. RH does take a bit, but AQI pretty quick. The clock is set on Beijing time. The gave me a link for an app and a WEB site, but it seems invalid. Don't care really care. Quick response to my question though.

FWIW, temp is within a few tenths of correct, RH reads about 5% RH low. About par for cheap sensors. My reference is an old mercury psychrometer. This one does not read VOC, CO or formamide so the calculated overall AQI is low by definition. Again, not an issue as I only care about PM readings.

So, the question is if this kind of meter is sensitive enough to evaluate airborne dust while woodworking? Not sure. I am not spending thousands to find out. Better than nothing. When I ran my spindle sander with the new 2 inch line going to my Fein, meter about two feet away, it continued to read zero. With the vac off, it burped to one once but I could smell the dust. I conclude your nose and a flashlight are probably just as good for pass/fail.

Disappointed with the DD 2.5. The top exit is sized for the OD of a vacuum hose which means a restrictive edge from the hose end facing the airflow. Not good design. The top is just snapped on to the come without a seal. Vacuum probably will pull it down, but again, not a good design. Will it work? Probably. I am trying to optimize, so I think I'll return it and stick with a bank of the ClearVue mini.

Back to work on the 2 inch runs. More blast gates should get here today. In my layout , they will all be at the end tool so no remote control for the gate is necessary, just the motors. Mounting the lines by punching a hole inn a hose clamp and screwing it to the wall. Really secure. The 4 inch may need more support.

On the 4 inch, I am going to do the pivot-plywood DIY gates as I need to remote control them. Single Morse cable or push-pull Bowden I don't know.
 

tvrgeek

Scott
Corporate Member
I was going to show you the complete 2 inch high lift plumbing, but alas, one of the blast gates is defective so it has to be replaced. I have not ordered the Record Power unit yet as I can test with my Fein. I have one more set of tests to do on the table saw before I am convinced which way to go.
 

tvrgeek

Scott
Corporate Member
@ inch installed
Until I get the Record Power, this just feeds through the wall to my CV/Fein vac. No remote or anything but the tools are all connected. It works quite well.

Each machine has a gate within easy reach that will get a micro-switch that will talk to the vacuum controller. The work bench port I did a remote of a long rod. Works great. This is for hand tools and the vacuum hose. If I don't go for the Record and keep the big CV, I will need to add a port to the router shroud and can plug the fence in to the bench port. TBD based on some additional testing. Plumbing got messy when you are sourcing from two directions. Much easier if the vacuum is an end point but with the high lift vac, it does OK. THis would be a disaster with a low lift source. They don't make the kind of long radius 180 degree Y I would have dreamed of. Thought about making one but the kluge works. ( saw two log 90's in half, glue etc. )

Now to mock up a 4 inch port extending inside the table saw with an extended air intake to direct the flow from the ZCI area. Looking for fines pickup and let the saw box be a chip collector. I really don't want to take the top off the saw to do this!
 

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tvrgeek

Scott
Corporate Member
Router testing:
One vac on the fence, one on the shroud. Almost no dust and the shroud remains clean, something the CV could not do. High lift. So I can duct this to the 4 inch run split to two 2 1/2, one of those choked down to an inch on the shroud. Run two motors for sufficient flow.

Table Saw testing:
Sealed up most of the leaks in the cabinet so I can really feel the airflow through the holes and gaps in the throat plate due to the high lift. You could not really with the CV and the more open leaky cabinet. Seal the cabinet, and with only 4 inches of lift, no airflow either. ZCI is lightly modified with holes to the left before the blade for edge ripping. One vent slit open next to the motor so it gets some clean air, and that increases the intra-cabinet overall flow. How does it work? BETTER than the CV as far as top-side debris. Adding the third motor to the blade guard and I think it is a winner. More work to be done inside the cabinet to eliminate dead spots so it sucks up more dust. Best way is to use it a bunch and see where the dust sits, then fill that in. Run three motors. 4 inch into all three cyclones. 4 inch into the cabinet and a 2 1/2 to the overarm. Overarm needs a pit of perfecting but close. All my testing, my PM 2.5 meter never budged above zero. I looked at what it would take to make a blade shroud. Possible, but way too much work for doubtful actual gains.

Band Saw testing:
About a wash. Two 2 1/2 lines and two vacs did at least as good as the 6 inch split to two 4's with the big cyclone.

Conclusion: For my single hobby shop, the Record Power three motor is the correct system. Three CV mini cyclones, and exhaust through a HEPA filter box. One big limitation is run-time. These motors are not designed to run more than an hour without a short rest. For my work habits, that is not a problem as even when I am jointing and planeing, I take breaks anyway. So if you run boards through a planer for hours, I may have a deal for you, as the big Lielson motor will run forever.

It comes down to your specific use case. The venders are telling you that you need what they sell and if it does not work perfectlly, it is your cheap ductwork, bad tools, poor installation, phase of the moon etc. Never the wrong technology. So why only one vender with the in-between technology? Too much money to be had selling oversize wrong stuff? Just making SOP as that is what the market expects? I did notice the Harvey system has about twice the lift as a conventional cyclone, but way short of what is needed for the less than 2 1/2 inch port machines. I wonder why they can sell bag type collectors. Gad, if they really wanted to improve worker health, they would ban them, not protect those poor hot-dogs.

*Big high volume, low lift. Really can suck up those planer chips. Often more than one machine at once, all day. Most filters are only MERV 15 so a enclosure with HEPA filters is wise.

*Single High lift, lower flow excels at hand-held, disk and spindle sander. Yea, a standard "Dust Extractor" Festool, Fein, Mirka, 3M, with a cyclone so you don't spend a car payment on bags. Not designed to run over an hour. A shop vac with filter and bags to filter the HEPA is about the same. Half the price and 10 times the noise.

*Multi-motor high lift can me made to handle one high flow machine and can be backed off as lower flow is needed. Again, an enclosure with true HEPA filters is wise. After all, it is the sub micron dust that causes lung disease. Not the sawdust on the floor.

So there you have it. Three technologies, three use cases. If you have space and money, then two separate systems would be best. Probably only need the two motor version. I am limited on space and power. I start on the 4 inch PCV tomorrow.
 

Rwe2156

DrBob
Senior User
So are you telling us your 5HP Clear Vue isn't getting the job done?

Is that 2" hooked to the CV or a shop vac?

I have a blower that collects planer, jointer, drum sander, band saw, table saw.
One shop vac for the table saw guard.
One shop vac for the stationary 6x10 sander + 12" bandsaw + oscillating spindle sander
A 1HP blower for radial arm + router table.

That's what I've got and it all works pretty darn well, if I may say so.

The issue with miter saws is containment, then a way to rapidly evacuate the containment chamber. Dust collection this way limits the use, too. No bevel cuts, and when you open it up for miter cuts you lose everything you gained. This was a Bosch axial glide with that 1HP blower. I did not collect directly off the saw, which was probably a mistake. I hooked up a pipe to direct the dust down into the collection plenum.

DC + me not happy with the Bosch was the reason I went back to a radial arm. MUCH easier to collect!!
 

tvrgeek

Scott
Corporate Member
Both do the job but only for the matching use case.
The big CV excels on the very high volume, big ducts, very low resistance. So for the un-modified table saw, overarm, bandsaw, jointer, planer and maybe an ambient hood for lathe or miter saw, it is the better technology.

Please consider, there is a big difference between dust and chips you can sweep up and the fine to ultra fine particles that cause lung disease. I can sweep up 10 micron dust. It falls out of the air. Actually, about once a week, I open the doors and use a leaf blower to blow all the settled dust out. Wearing my good mask of course. If you can see it, it is not what hurts you. A nuisance, but not dangerous.

For things like handheld tools, disk, spindle sander, and hose to clean everything up, a single extractor is by far superior. For the Kapex, the CV produced virtually ZERO flow as the port is less than an inch. 5 inches of lift just does not pull anything through. 90 does. So the vacuum is a must. If I wanted a hood, it would mean running both the vac and CV.

On the router, the CV was fine on the fence, but could not keep the base of the router clear. I tested an enclosure but it just can't produce the lift to clear around the bit. A single vac is OK if you keep the fence tight, but running two works great.

Running two high lift motors, a Ridgid and a Fein, through a 4 inch hose has enough flow for my jointer, planer and drum sander. One would actually work on the DeWalt planer as it has an internal high volume fan. The CV would be optimum, but both methods work.

The table saw unmodified needs the high flow. Spec of over 800 CFM and that's not counting the overarm. Tested the overarm and with the side brush mod, performance is the subjectively about same one vac vs the CV. With the saw, after I sealed the cabinet the CV would do nothing as sealed means high resistance, but two vacs have enough flow to maintain lift forcing far more flow past the insert in the gap fore and aft of the blade. I still get cabinet drop-out, but less comes back on top of the table. Further in-cabinet mods will reduce it more. That leaves the additional volume from the third motor to run the overarm. Rippling half a blade width does still jet across the table and that can be fine dust. The only solution I have is either the magnetic hose scoop I occasionally set up, or the correct solution may be a port in the surface of the table. I can envision a 3 x 6 insert perforated left of and a couple inches away from the blade to suck down that jet. Do I dare cut a hole in my table top?

I have made internal tweaks to my band saw where it is a wash, CV, 6 inch to two 4 inch vs two motors, 4 inch split to two. I have further mods in mind where high lift is better. So both work OK.

So, two systems would be optimal, but can I do it with ONE system? For my specific case, yes. The tipping point was to modify the duct collection internal to the table saw where high flow was no longer needed and high lift works better.

As I have the CV, one might think keeping it on a 6 inch system and keeping the Fein/CD cyclone as the 2 inch system is best. Yes and no. Space is the issue. I could move the Fein system upstairs as it has enough lift to overcome 10 feet and it already has a "true HEPA" filter. Note "true HEPA is not as fine as H13 medical grade HEPA. Lots to be learned there but that's another topic. I then still have to build a cabinet around the CV with HEPA filters as it's big filters are only MERV 15 so they pass the ultra fine dust that is most dangerous. WYNN makes some good ones, but I need at least three @ $350 each to get the flow with less than one inch drop. The alternative is to sacrifice the HVAC and blow the CV outside. With no filters, it would pick up an inch of lift.

As a single vac does not move much volume, sending the exhaust outside may be a very good implementation. Tools like the ROS are the worst for making ultra fine dust, maybe even one's track saw. Best filter is one you don't need. Might need a muffler though if using in noise restriction hours. Moving the CV outside would cause anyone on the street to come knocking as it is as bad as a commercial gas powered leaf blower. It would also devastate my attempt to hold RH around 50% ands comfortable temps.

So I go with the Record Power three motor. I can get away with one H13 external filter. I regain space I need. If I did more volume jointing and planning, or maybe had a bigger planer that could take off more than a hair, needed a big sanding hood by the lathe or had any hope of better collection around the Kapex, then keeping the CV would be best.

By measurement, I was getting around 1200 CFM at the entrance to my table saw with no other port open. Add the overarm and it dropped more. I still need to add a H13 filter box for well over $1000 and it will reduce the flow further. The three motor Record can pull 850 CFM through a 4 inch duct they claim ( seems high to me) so it is not really that far short. A pair of two motor systems might actually out-perform the CV in all cases. Something to think about.

The 2 inch system is currently fed by just the Fein. I did mock-ups with the two vacs on the larger machines and drug out my old Sears vac for three on the table saw. Had to run an extension cord to get enough 110 power. An advantage of the Record is it runs on 220, so I have the power without re-wiring.

It is clear the industry has not given enough thought and effort to ultra fine dust collection for small shop. OSHA has nothing to say about my hobby, but they do for commercial shops. Enclosed CNC is becoming the norm. Even so, standards are too lax. They have been reducing PM2.5 every couple of years but no real spec on over 90 % of airborne mass .3 to .001 micron that is the size that embeds in your lungs and passes into the bloodstream. EU may have some standards but I am unaware. I certainly do not have all the answers, but I do have many of the questions so I can do my best to fix those I can.

Measurement: The cheap Chinese sensors are useless, inaccurate, and some actually fraud not having the sensor they claim. The inexpensive ones like I bought from HOTKREM* work, but don't tell you anything useful. Before it went off zero, I could smell the dust. By the time it climbed in to "poor" AQI range, I could see the dust with a flashlight beam and would have put on my good mask. I took it into the house and in the room I was vacuuming, it never left zero even though I could smell the escaping from the vac fines. Turns out, measuring PM2.5 accurately costs about $20,000. Measuring accurately smaller is high end laboratory stuff and extremely difficult. Mostly it is a collection filter taken in and looked at by microscope and particles counted by hand. Hint: any performance claims made by inexpensive home-use air purifiers are useless and most "certifications" fraud. A few units in the $1000 range do actually filter below .3u. Better information can come from the filter media manufacturers. I am re-addressing my ambient air box that had MERV 15 filters in it. I think I can add more surface and get to H13. Can't change the Mini-split as too high a drop upsets the coil ratios and strains the fan so the MERV 12s stay.

*Even the HOTKREM is misleading as it has a PM 1.0 display. The sensor is a PM 2.5 that includes a PM 10.0 count, but though PM 2.5 means 2.5 u/M3 and below, so specify 1u is misleading even if it does detect them. This is how the laser reflective sensors work.

So, to coin a phrase from Harry Potter: "It's complicated"
 

Rwe2156

DrBob
Senior User
One reason I have a hard time relating is that I have a non-climate controlled shop that is open 95% of the year.

I have two 20” fans suspended from the ceiling which run 24/7 and another 20” pedestal fan. In addition to those, a 4000CFM exhaust fan. My main shop is about 1600SF.

I have the electric infrastructure to air condition the shop but I know if I do that my dust collection is gonna get blown up and I’ll have to go to filters and a bigger system. It will cost in excess of $8000 to insulate an buy the equipment. I would build a new shop before I spent that on refusing an old converted barn.
 

tvrgeek

Scott
Corporate Member
Band saw modifications may change the equations. The high lift was working better at the guides, but the high flow better in the cabinet. Took it all apart. The guide port is blocked half way by the frame. Not cutting the frame. But the other half is partially blocked by sheet metal overhang. About 3/8 inch for 180 degrees and of course, a sharp ridge which further reduced flow. Ground it all out. Then right below the guides, the sheet metal blocked three sides by aa good 3/8 inch. Ground it all out and slightly radiused the edges. This may make it possible to actually have flow from the ClearVue. I have to do a full alignment first as I had the lower trunnion off. If this improves noticeably, the next step is to cut the lower port off and move it to the corner so the full 4 inch port can face the guides. As I mentioned, just plain bad design with respect to airflow.


One reason I have a hard time relating is that I have a non-climate controlled shop that is open 95% of the year.

I have two 20” fans suspended from the ceiling which run 24/7 and another 20” pedestal fan. In addition to those, a 4000CFM exhaust fan. My main shop is about 1600SF.

I have the electric infrastructure to air condition the shop but I know if I do that my dust collection is gonna get blown up and I’ll have to go to filters and a bigger system. It will cost in excess of $8000 to insulate an buy the equipment. I would build a new shop before I spent that on refusing an old converted barn.
Blowing through fresh air is by far the most effective! If you positioned it down-wind, a cheap bag collector would suffice to reduce what you have to sweep. I break down sheets in my driveway and do as much rattle-can as I can on an outside bench.

I just don't enjoy being too hot or cold and try to keep RH around 50% so my tools don't rust and wood stabilizes. So I did insulate and put in HVAC. Yup, it was not cheap. All told it cost about 50K to finish a bare floor pole barn into my shop. Only mistake was running a gas line I thought I would need in the winter, but modern heat pumps do far more than I thought.
 

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tvrgeek

Scott
Corporate Member
Clear Vue performance mystery solved. I was measuring between 3 and 4 inches of water with all ports closed and about 2 with the band saw gate open. Way lower than expected. To verify, I made a slack tube. Well, my Maganehelic is crap. I get almost 7 with the BS gates open and over 10 with all sealed. That means I am slightly above what Pentz suggests as a target. So the CV1700 is working as it should.
10M/s in a 6 inch calculates to 1546 CFM. Slack tubes don't lie. What is odd is the anemometer reading is reasonable, so the readings on the vacs are higher than expected.

Testing on the BS with the mods, the cabinets stays almost clean. I don't see any difference in how much dust falls from the upper cabinet between one vacuum and the CV. I did not see much difference if I opened another gate, so it has all the airflow the saw can supply. Moving the upper port over seems to be the most logical step to stay with the CV. With one vac on the upper port and another on the lower, I got more debris on the lower tire and some in the cabinet bottom so the lower port wants the higher airflow. It could use some filler blocks to plug up low pressure areas like the door bottom lip and lower right corner. I am not seeing much difference with foam blocks restricting or not under the table. I did before opening the port and frame.
 

tvrgeek

Scott
Corporate Member
Testing the drill press with a narrow beam bright light. Cutting a couple holes to support 2 inch pipes, I can see far more airborne fines than I expected. So, I should make a high volume scoop there. This may be forcing my hand to have two systems.

Even with the "HEPA", or so FEIN claims, I could smell the phenolic I was sanding. That suggests it is either not HEPA, or the amount of ultra fines is greater. Maybe I should supplement my ambient air filter with an IQAir.

This afternoon is for a couple more ideas on the band saw. I have yet to decide if the vacuum goes in the corner or the attic. Looked in my parts bin and I don't have a solid state relay big enough, so I'll have to order parts to make the remote. Opening any of the four gates will turn on the vac. Hardwired.
 

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