Starting out with Hand Saws

[jarrett]

I started asking about this in my "Who We Are" thread, but came up with more questions, and thought this would be a better area to ask the more experienced Neanderthals among us all. :wink_smil

Right now I'm using a cruddy hand miter saw that's as useful as a steak knife, and an XActo Razor Saw that was designed for balsa wood and not much else. So, I'm looking to upgrade to a nicer Western-style saw. So...

--If you were to spend the money on one quality saw, would it be better to spend it on a rip or a crosscut saw? Froglips pointed me to the new Veritas Dovetail saw, and it is tempting, but I'm wondering what I should take care of first.

--Any other suggestions for a good starting saw? The Veritas Dovetail would probably be my upper limit for now, so would something like the Crown Tools series work? I'll be headed to the library to try to read up on some woodworking magazine back issues.

--I was wondering if anyone's tried the "Pony" saws offered at Klingspor's and WoodCraft? Where are they made in? Are those essentially blanks used to learn saw sharpening?

--What woods should I be starting out practicing with? I'm assuming "with the cheapest wood", but is handsawing with softwoods enough of a difference that I should try out some cuts in a hardwood too?
Also, should I just go to Lowes/Home Depot and pick up some cheapo whitewood, or is there a better place here to get cheap wood?

Thanks everyone!

 

[CarvedTones]

One question - why do you want a Western saw? If you have a preference because you want to have a collection of traditional saws, I understand completely. I have both types and I have a preference for Western back saws, but for general ripping and cross cuts I use my Zeta blades because they cut faster with less effort.

If you want to expand your vocabulary, try rip cutting a straight line in hickory.

 

[nelsone]

I started asking about this in my "Who We Are" thread, but came up with more questions, and thought this would be a better area to ask the more experienced Neanderthals among us all. :wink_smil

Right now I'm using a cruddy hand miter saw that's as useful as a steak knife, and an XActo Razor Saw that was designed for balsa wood and not much else. So, I'm looking to upgrade to a nicer Western-style saw. So...

--If you were to spend the money on one quality saw, would it be better to spend it on a rip or a crosscut saw? Froglips pointed me to the new Veritas Dovetail saw, and it is tempting, but I'm wondering what I should take care of first.

--Any other suggestions for a good starting saw? The Veritas Dovetail would probably be my upper limit for now, so would something like the Crown Tools series work? I'll be headed to the library to try to read up on some woodworking magazine back issues.

--I was wondering if anyone's tried the "Pony" saws offered at Klingspor's and WoodCraft? Where are they made in? Are those essentially blanks used to learn saw sharpening?

--What woods should I be starting out practicing with? I'm assuming "with the cheapest wood", but is handsawing with softwoods enough of a difference that I should try out some cuts in a hardwood too?
Also, should I just go to Lowes/Home Depot and pick up some cheapo whitewood, or is there a better place here to get cheap wood?

Thanks everyone!

I think the Veritas would be a very good saw (most of their products are excellent). If you want to go the $125ish range Lie Neilsen, Grammercy, Wenzloff & Sons would all be very good saws. I am really jonsing for one of Mike Wenzloff's saws!

Another option would be to find an older saw that is in good shape and either learn to sharpen it or send it out to be sharpened.

As for rip or crosscut, it depends on what you are doing. Dovetails and tenon saws should be filed rip (which is pretty eazy to learn to sharpen).

A lot of guys like the japanese style saws and they may be worth looking into also, I just prefer the western style.

Popler or pine would both be fine for practicing with, but most any wood will work. The key is learning to cut to the line!

 

[LeftyTom]

Jarrett, if you are just trying your hand at dovetails, I would stay away from pine. It is cheap and plentiful, but cutting a clean dovetail, without any tearout, can be a bit daunting on wood that soft. Poplar is a good choice.

Of course, this is MHO, and YMMV.

 

[jerrye]

Go pull saw. Short learning curve; thinnest kerf; 0 tearout with anything I've cut with one, even using rip blade; I can cut straighter with easier effort.

Check out these. Very good saws, and local NC company.

HTH

 

[froglips]

I rethought this. I'd suggest something else to consider.

Look at the $12 dovetail saw over at Tools for Working Wood.

A saw like that is a decent start.

You'll need a set of needle files to shape and sharpen in properly.

Then I'd buy or rent from Smartflix, that Tom Law dvd. Smartflx rents how to dvds for ~$10/week.

Pine is a real pain to learn on, I totally concur on that. Poplar is somewhat easier as it doesn't have those pesky harder growth rings.

Also, check out Woodworking Magazine and Chris Schwarz blog on their site. Tons of stuff about saws and saw selection.

Jim

 

[CarvedTones]

Go pull saw. Short learning curve; thinnest kerf; 0 tearout with anything I've cut with one, even using rip blade; I can cut straighter with easier effort.

Check out these. Very good saws, and local NC company.

HTH

Jerry,

One little nit to pick with you. From their "about" page (http://www.silkysaws.com/companyinfo.htm):

Silky America Corporation is the Sole Importer & Exclusive Distributor of the complete line of Silky saw products for North and Central Americas.

My favorites are imported also, so I am not saying that it's a bad thing, but I wouldn't call Silky a local company. I get my Zeta blades from Tashiro Hardware in Seattle (http://www.tashirohardware.com).

But I definitely agree about pull saws being easier. It's simple physics. because you are pulling, a thinner blade will stay straight. Because the blade is thinner, you remove less wood on every cut which means less force/exertion is required.

 

[jerrye]

Jerry,

One little nit to pick with you. From their "about" page (http://www.silkysaws.com/companyinfo.htm):

Silky America Corporation is the Sole Importer & Exclusive Distributor of the complete line of Silky saw products for North and Central Americas.

My favorites are imported also, so I am not saying that it's a bad thing, but I wouldn't call Silky a local company. I get my Zeta blades from Tashiro Hardware in Seattle (http://www.tashirohardware.com).

But I definitely agree about pull saws being easier. It's simple physics. because you are pulling, a thinner blade will stay straight. Because the blade is thinner, you remove less wood on every cut which means less force/exertion is required.

Sorry Andy, by local I meant close enough to go by & put your hands on them & play with them before you buy. Can't do that with all internet sellers. They're just off Hwy 85, x52 in Concord. Not far from Tarhead. I know they're imported. Still great saws for the money. And by buying from them we are helping NC economy...

+1 your comments on ease of use with pull saw. I know I'll never use anything else.

Did you know a fine toothed pull saw cuts lexan/plexi very well and very fast? Won't cut curves, of course, but leaves very clean edge. Just cut with saw at 15-20° angle from parallel with surface, and cut away!

 

[CarvedTones]

There is definitely something to be said for hands on with hand tools.

Won't cut curves? You do need to visit the Tashiro site and check out the "compass" blade. My mainstays are the King, King Rip and Narrow blades, for cross cut, ripping and utility (lexan/plexi, plastic pipe, etc) respectively. You can use the Narrow for just about anything to leave a really fine surface, but it cuts as slow as a Western saw. The next thing I get will probably be the Queen Dovetail. I share a handle between blades. Not just because I am cheap, but also because that lets you store the saws in next to no space at all.

 

[jarrett]

Well, various reasons for wanting to start out learning Western:

-The proper posture for japanese style saws doesn't look that comfortable to me, hunched over a low horse. I plan on working on a standard "western" height, so I'm inclined to learn the saw that is better suited to that.
-I've read in numerous places that japanese saws are easier to kink and ruin, and there's no fixing that, as compared to something I could eventually learn to reshape.
-The suitability of western saws to western woods.
-And lastly, I just like the traditional sense of the western style saws even if I'm considering that weird looking veritas.

I know I've got some learning ahead of me, so I don't mind picking the style that has the harder learning curve at first. Also, I don't know how soon I'll get into doing dovetails. I'm more interested in learning mortise and tenon stuff right now.

Jim/Froglips--you got me all worked up over that Veritas saw and now you take it back? :gar-Bi

Thanks all for the advice, especially on what wood to start out on.

 

[froglips]

Sorry to be such a Lucy yanking the football away there Charlie Brown

If you feel the need to get a higher end saw, you have my blessing. Just please let me borrow it!

Jim

 

[Gofor]

Two saws that may not break the budget and will let you get a feel for what you want (i.e tenons and dovetails). The E Garlicks 8" dovetail (Gent's handle style) and the Crown tenon saw (Conventional handle with massive back brace). (I bought one at Woodcraft and one at Klingspors, but do not remember which was bought where). Both were made in Sheffield, England.

The E. Garlick is my favorite because it stayed sharper longer, and is lighter and well balanced. The Crown dulled quicker, and feels top-heavy due the 1" brass backing, and has a more aggressive set to the teeth, making it harder to start for a novice. However, it has the traditional handle which may be more to your liking.

The cons are that both dulled fairly quickly in white oak. I ended up using my Stanley hand miter saw (after resharpening for a rip cut), and still use it for long tenons.

If only buying one, and if you are not dead set against a Gent saw handle, I would favor the E. Garlick. It will hold an edge well in soft maple and poplar, cut straight "as bought", and still cuts okay after the points of the teeth blunted. Howeverr, for tenons, its depth is a little shy of 1 3/4" where the Crown is a little shy of 2 1/4". I think that my problem with the Crown is that the hand hole in the conventional grip is a bit narrow for my hand (I only wear a size L glove and am 5'8" tall, so I do not have large hands), but I have not cut out the bottom for a better grip yet. I guess you are only suppose to put three fingers in the hole with the forefinger along the blade, but with arthritis, that sometimes is not a player.

You will need a micro-file to sharpen either one as both are about 20 teeth per inch.

This is from someone who has never had the pleasure of using a top quality saw, so take it for what its worth.

Go

 

[CarvedTones]

Well, various reasons for wanting to start out learning Western:

-The proper posture for japanese style saws doesn't look that comfortable to me, hunched over a low horse. I plan on working on a standard "western" height, so I'm inclined to learn the saw that is better suited to that.
-I've read in numerous places that japanese saws are easier to kink and ruin, and there's no fixing that, as compared to something I could eventually learn to reshape.
-The suitability of western saws to western woods.
-And lastly, I just like the traditional sense of the western style saws even if I'm considering that weird looking veritas.

Interesting; I only completely agree with the last one. I clamp wood the same and stand the same for either type of saw. The Zeta blades I prefer are absolutely easier to kink, but some other ones are stiffer. Zetas are basically disposable, but last through a lot of cutting before needing replacement. The wood thing I don't get. But your last reason trumps everything else - this is a hobby. I went through a "Western saw phase" and I enjoyed it. I still have my favorite one.

 

[Sandy Rose]

I started using japanese-style hand saws a couple of years ago. I really like them, they can easy to bend when you are starting out using them if you're not careful.

 

[Outa Square]

I purchased a Crown dovetail saw from the Woodworking Shop for around $20 bucks a few months back it's a gent saw. I have a few pull saws, but i find that it's easier for me to stick with push stroke on most every thing.

I have quite a few handsaws that i got from my Grandfather that sharpen them. I have his files and vise but not much of his skill...:rotflm:

 

[JimmyC]

Interesting; I only completely agree with the last one. I clamp wood the same and stand the same for either type of saw. The Zeta blades I prefer are absolutely easier to kink, but some other ones are stiffer. Zetas are basically disposable, but last through a lot of cutting before needing replacement. The wood thing I don't get. But your last reason trumps everything else - this is a hobby. I went through a "Western saw phase" and I enjoyed it. I still have my favorite one.

Body position should be different with japanese saws and western saws.
Japanese saws are pulled toward you on the stroke. With western saws the strokes are across the front of the body while doing dovetails, going elbow to elbow. Western saws are harder to learn, as in patience. The start is very important, and the cut is aggressive. I prefer the western saw due to the fact that I do most of my handsaw work, at the moment, cutting dovetails and I don't feel like adding hundreds of strokes using a japanese saw. Keeping strokes long and making fewer of them is the best way to keep your cut straight.
I like the new Veritas saw, it's $65 and has a blade that's made in Japan and hardened to western standards so that it sharpens well, and if you think it looks funny I'm sure traditionalists said that about japanese saws the first time they used them.

Good luck.

 

[fsdogwood]

Well, I use western saws most of the time.

From what you posted, it seems that what you are asking is a tenon/dovetail style saw.

Over the weekend. worked with GIT, grabbed a piece of wood, have it
marked, showed him how I would use the saw (btw, it's a Freud 15-18 tpi
saw, picked up at a local sale for cheap), let him sawing more lines as
a practice . Had to tell him to be gentle, no down-ward pressure, let the
weight of the saw do the sawing, just follow the kerf, .... Have to say
that for western saws, you start with couple of pullings to get it registered,
then you can start quite easily. All it takes is practice.

Hope this helps.

Pinwu

 

[jarrett]

Well, I ended up ordering a Veritas Dovetail saw...:gar-Bi

I thought about going with a cheaper saw at first, but wanted to try something with a pistol grip, and they were all around that price, but not seemingly at that quality. Plus, knowing myself, I didn't want to get something that I would eventually convince myself that I needed upgrading from (at least not right away).

And part of it was the tech geek in me admiring a company that is trying to improve on a product by rethinking the traditional design. Of course, I don't really have anything else to compare it to, but it sounds good. :gar-La; I like the new materials, the way the rake angle is supposed to be easier to start.

So, I'll let everyone know how it cuts, from the eyes of a newbie, once it comes in...

Thanks everyone for their advice!

 

[CarvedTones]

Jimmy,

I do have body position different, but clamping height is the same and I don't hunch over with either more than the other (the OP's concerns about pul saws). I do stand at a different angle compared to the cut.

I use a pistol grip handle, if that makes any difference.

 

[froglips]

Sweet! Let us know what you think of the saw.

Jim

Well, I ended up ordering a Veritas Dovetail saw...:gar-Bi

I thought about going with a cheaper saw at first, but wanted to try something with a pistol grip, and they were all around that price, but not seemingly at that quality. Plus, knowing myself, I didn't want to get something that I would eventually convince myself that I needed upgrading from (at least not right away).

And part of it was the tech geek in me admiring a company that is trying to improve on a product by rethinking the traditional design. Of course, I don't really have anything else to compare it to, but it sounds good. :gar-La; I like the new materials, the way the rake angle is supposed to be easier to start.

So, I'll let everyone know how it cuts, from the eyes of a newbie, once it comes in...

Thanks everyone for their advice!