Rust Removal by Electrolysis for Tablesaw Tops (without removing the top)

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Tarhead

Mark
Corporate Member
I saw this site referenced for rust removal in another group. It shows the standard soak in a tub of electrolyte solution w/battery charger method in the first half. The second half details how to use a rag soaked in solution for spot electroysis on a tablesaw top.
FRETS.COM Machining

I would highly recommend calling Roger (Sapwood) if you are new to this. He perfected the combination of rust removal by electrolysis and channelling of harmonic vibrations through his special headgear w/hybrid antenae in his shop.:lol:
RediKilowatt.jpg
 

ashley_phil

Phil Ashley
Corporate Member
you can do the same thing soaking parts in diluted nitric acid or wiping the table down with nitric as well.
 

Tarhead

Mark
Corporate Member
Phil,
I've tried a product with phosphoric acid in it and it stained the cast iron. Does nitric acid stain?
 

ashley_phil

Phil Ashley
Corporate Member
no nitric acid disolves the rust. i have never done it on a "tool" but i did it successfully in college on a bunch of crucible tongs that were very rusty. then sealed them with clear coat poly to keep them from rusting again.

I think i diluted the 16 molar (very strong) nitric we had in the lab. I think i up 100 mls in 1 liter so that's 1 to 10 or so. you have to use gloves so it doesn't eat your skin. After the rust was gone i put the tongs in a pan in the sink and ran water over them for a few minutes essentially rinsing them and further dilute the remaining acid. then dried with paper towels and sprayed poly on them. for tools you could throw a quick coat of wax. acid cleaned metal will rust very quickly, i'm sure the stuff cleaned by electrolysis will too.
 

Steve D

Member
Steve DeWeese
Yes, metal that is cleaned by electrolysis will develop rust very quickly but it is a very light surface rust that can quickly be removed with scotchbrite. You do want to get a film on the metal quickly if you want to avoid it.
 

sapwood

Roger
Corporate Member
Mark,
Interesting read, however:

(1) He makes the first process look so clean :roll:
I always end up with a tub of brown/red sludge . . . you can't see the bottom!

(2) He makes removing the gunk look so easy :roll:
I always end up laboring away with wire brushes, scotchbrite, and whatever to remove the gunk!

(3) Steve is spot on about the rust reappearing in minutes :roll:

(4) I'd wear my headgear in a thunder storm before trying the second process :roll:

(5) My body remains rust-free after only one application of the Reddy Kilowatt Headgear™. It also removes warts and unsightly blemishes.* :mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen:
(Available soon in stores in your area)

*Will not cure WGD.


Roger
 

chris99z71

New User
Chris
:laughing4
(some patients also experienced nausea, fatigue, vomiting, dermatitis, stomatitis, fainting, weakness, upset stomach, ulcers, pruritus, facial, hand or lip oedema, dysphagia, urticaria, sore throat, stinging and burning upon application, eosinophilia, fever, explosive dirrhea and/or headache)
 

jglord

New User
John
After looking at the link in Tarhead's post, I noticed the author used baking soda and most folks here are using various acids. Perhaps the use of acid is the reason for different results.
Trying to figure the chemistry will make my head hurt but it seems using a basic solution instead of an acidic solutions will alter the outcome. Others sites were I've read about electrolytic rust removal recommend using washing soda.
 

Tarhead

Mark
Corporate Member
John,
I noticed the same thing re: baking soda vs washing soda. All the references say to use washing soda. I'm not sure the difference but they're both a form of sodium bicarbonate. As far as the use of acid, I just dabbed a paper towel with a spray of "Rust Free" from Boeshield (phosphoric acid) on some rust and it coverted the rust to a black version of rust.
 

sapwood

Roger
Corporate Member
After looking at the link in Tarhead's post, I noticed the author used baking soda and most folks here are using various acids. Perhaps the use of acid is the reason for different results.
Trying to figure the chemistry will make my head hurt but it seems using a basic solution instead of an acidic solutions will alter the outcome. Others sites were I've read about electrolytic rust removal recommend using washing soda.

Good catch John! You really need washing soda. It's a more acidic than baking soda and getting harder to find. I tried 3 grocery stores before finding it in the detergent section in Kroger.

Roger
 

chris99z71

New User
Chris
Washing soda = sodium carbonate
Baking soda = sodium bicarbonate

From what I gather, the "experts" recommend sodium carbonate and report slightly better results over sodium bicarb.

A solution made from sodium carbonate will have a slightly higher (more basic) pH. However, if you add a little bit of acid to it, it turns into a sodium bicarbonate solution. Conversely, if you started with a sodium bicarbonate solution (baking soda) and added a touch of Draino (not the blue stuff), you've got yourself a sodium carbonate solution.

If you want to see a picture go here and look for the heading:
"More complicated titration curves"
FYI-sodium hydrogencarbonate = sodium bicarbonate

-your friendly neighborhood chemist :icon_thum
 

ashley_phil

Phil Ashley
Corporate Member
been awhile since i thought about any chemistry, but from my recollection the difference between baking soda & washing soda or carbonate vs bicarbonate is that the carbonate will react or break down in water twice making it more basic or higher ph the bicarbonate breaks down once so you have to put twice the baking soda in vs washing soda.

of course i'm no longer a practicing chemist and forget more with each year that passes so i could be way off.

i do know for sure if you can lay your hands on some nitric acid it will disolve the rust and leave clean metal.
 

MikeH

Mike
Corporate Member
After looking at the link in Tarhead's post, I noticed the author used baking soda and most folks here are using various acids. Perhaps the use of acid is the reason for different results.
Trying to figure the chemistry will make my head hurt but it seems using a basic solution instead of an acidic solutions will alter the outcome. Others sites were I've read about electrolytic rust removal recommend using washing soda.

Phil can help with the chemistry part. Right Phil?;-)
 

Gofor

Mark
Corporate Member
With the electrolysis removal, you want a solution that is very conductive. Your are reversing the natural corrosive galvanic cycle of anode,cathode, electrolyte and conductor path by using a forced electrical DC current to make the anode the cathode. Vinegar will work, as well as baking soda or good old salt. If you use copper pipe as the anode, put a milli-ammeter across on a jumper wire connecting it and the steel/cast iron you are cleaning the two (without the battery charger attached). The higher the amperage the better the conductance of the solution.
For direct chemical removal of rust from ferrous metals, phosphoric acid is the best acid to not cause any other side issues. For direct chemical removal of rust, sodium hydroxide (draino crystal type) is also a very good solution. It will remove paint (not polyurethane or epoxy) like enamel, varnish, or lacquer, greases except for silicone, and rust. Heating it speeds the process. DO NOT put any aluminum in sodium hydroxide.
Positives of acid: Can use lesser concentration, easily neutalized. Coatings adhere best to a slightly acidic surface. Negative: SLower unless in very high concentration. Starts corrosion immediately when current removed due to the oxidizing nature of acid. Best to immediately rinse it with baking soda solution (neutralize the acid) and a slightly base (alkaline ) solution (a diluted amount of greased lightning will probably work well but best to rinse it if you are going to paint it later, or spray it with WD-40).
Positives of strong alkaline: Removes grease, oil, paint and rust in one step. Negatives: Very hazardous (dissolves flesh, bone, eyeballs, aluminum,etc quickly. Thats why it makes a good drain cleaner and they used to use it at slaughter houses to dispose of the unwanted remains. Today they turn the waste into Spam and hotdogs and sell it at the meat counter:lol::lol:). Harder to neutralize, making it harder to dispose of (if you dump it in your yard, nothing will grow there for about five years, and all the vegetable matter will turn into an icky black goo. DAMHIKT)

For added info do a google search for "corrosion theory" and "galvanic scale". Haven't done that but should give you an idea of what the chemistry is.

Go
 

junquecol

Bruce
User
:laughing4
(some patients also experienced nausea, fatigue, vomiting, dermatitis, stomatitis, fainting, weakness, upset stomach, ulcers, pruritus, facial, hand or lip oedema, dysphagia, urticaria, sore throat, stinging and burning upon application, eosinophilia, fever, explosive dirrhea and/or headache)
You left out E.D. Of course with "explosive dirrehea" what does it matter. Just get out of the way!:eusa_pray
 

Joe Lyddon

New User
Joe Lyddon
I saw this site referenced for rust removal in another group. It shows the standard soak in a tub of electrolyte solution w/battery charger method in the first half. The second half details how to use a rag soaked in solution for spot electroysis on a tablesaw top.
FRETS.COM Machining

Yes, Washing Soda...

Here is another Link for more information...
Rust Removal using Electrolysis

It does work... BUT you must be careful... there are tricks you will learn as you get started in it... depending on how bad the piece is.

Once you have performed the treatment on a piece, if you don't protect it with light oil, etc., it will just rust again... :)

It can do WONDERS on really old heavily rusted stuff... amazing...

Be careful!
 
J

jeff...

I saw this site referenced for rust removal in another group. It shows the standard soak in a tub of electrolyte solution w/battery charger method in the first half. The second half details how to use a rag soaked in solution for spot electroysis on a tablesaw top.
FRETS.COM Machining

I would highly recommend calling Roger (Sapwood) if you are new to this. He perfected the combination of rust removal by electrolysis and channelling of harmonic vibrations through his special headgear w/hybrid antenae in his shop.:lol:
RediKilowatt.jpg

Yeah just look at how RUST FREE that cover is
 
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