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Re: Plumbing help!
More than a few colorful words have come from my lips over the years as the result of leaking unions. :realmad: The alignment of the seat is critical and it is possible to deform them by overcranking on the nut. The other thing I found was that sometimes what appeared to be a leak at the joint was in reality a leak where the seat was threaded onto the upper pipe. I have found that compound does work better than tape in these instances YMMV. :wsmile:
More than a few colorful words have come from my lips over the years as the result of leaking unions. :realmad: The alignment of the seat is critical and it is possible to deform them by overcranking on the nut. The other thing I found was that sometimes what appeared to be a leak at the joint was in reality a leak where the seat was threaded onto the upper pipe. I have found that compound does work better than tape in these instances YMMV. :wsmile:
Re: Plumbing help!
Glenn,
Thanks for the input. It's comforting to know that I'm not the only one to have this problem.
It is definitely leaking on the underside of the nut. The male fitting is up, and the water beads form at the bottom edge of the nut exactly where the arrow in the photo is pointing.
So should I replace the union? Try dope? Use a shark-bite (pex) connector?
Glenn,
Thanks for the input. It's comforting to know that I'm not the only one to have this problem.
It is definitely leaking on the underside of the nut. The male fitting is up, and the water beads form at the bottom edge of the nut exactly where the arrow in the photo is pointing.
So should I replace the union? Try dope? Use a shark-bite (pex) connector?
Re: Plumbing help!
Is 180 normal,I only have 40 on my system.Tony
Is 180 normal,I only have 40 on my system.Tony
Re: Plumbing help!
First off I am not a plumber, but I make my living watching other people work and here is what I have observed over the years. The plumbers, sprinkler pipe fitters and the gas line fitters do not use tape or dope on the seals or threads of a union. They do use tape with or without dope on the threads of the pipe, but never on the threads of the large nut - they depend on the close tolerance of the metal seat.
Good luck
First off I am not a plumber, but I make my living watching other people work and here is what I have observed over the years. The plumbers, sprinkler pipe fitters and the gas line fitters do not use tape or dope on the seals or threads of a union. They do use tape with or without dope on the threads of the pipe, but never on the threads of the large nut - they depend on the close tolerance of the metal seat.
Good luck
Re: Plumbing help!
Sorry dude, I should have looked at the picture more closely. As Phil says the union nut itself does not require sealant since it is not in contact with water unlike a normal thread to thread connection. The metal seat is where the seal is made and tape/sealant on the union nut may prevent the nut from drawing the two union halves together. The other thing to consider is that since the union is on the street side of the reducer 180 PSI is a heck of a lot of pressure. Perhaps you should reconfigure where you put the union ? I do not know what unions are rated for.:wsmile:
Sorry dude, I should have looked at the picture more closely. As Phil says the union nut itself does not require sealant since it is not in contact with water unlike a normal thread to thread connection. The metal seat is where the seal is made and tape/sealant on the union nut may prevent the nut from drawing the two union halves together. The other thing to consider is that since the union is on the street side of the reducer 180 PSI is a heck of a lot of pressure. Perhaps you should reconfigure where you put the union ? I do not know what unions are rated for.:wsmile:
Re: Plumbing help!
I've never of heard of a supply pressure of 180 PSI for residential use!
We had a supply pressure of 120 PSI here a few years ago and the town put reducers on all of the meters. What does your water supplier give as the reason for such a high pressure? BTW, as you probably know, household pressure of 45-50 PSI is sufficient for a three story house.
As for your Q., when it comes to plumbing details, it seems to be a dark art to me.
I've never of heard of a supply pressure of 180 PSI for residential use!
We had a supply pressure of 120 PSI here a few years ago and the town put reducers on all of the meters. What does your water supplier give as the reason for such a high pressure? BTW, as you probably know, household pressure of 45-50 PSI is sufficient for a three story house.
As for your Q., when it comes to plumbing details, it seems to be a dark art to me.
Re: Plumbing help!
That union is rated at 150# wog. Still, if the seating surfaces are mating properly, they should seal. The slightist nick on one of these faces will ruin the seal. You might try taking it apart and rubbing the seating faces lightly with emery paper. When you re-assemble just get it snug so as not to gall the seating surfaces.
That union is rated at 150# wog. Still, if the seating surfaces are mating properly, they should seal. The slightist nick on one of these faces will ruin the seal. You might try taking it apart and rubbing the seating faces lightly with emery paper. When you re-assemble just get it snug so as not to gall the seating surfaces.
Re: Plumbing help!
+1. If the seating faces are smooth, you shouldn't need to crank it down.
You might check with a plumbing supply house on high-pressure unions. I know on hp gas unions, they have a captured o-ring on the seating face. Dunno if that exists for water or not though.
Alternately I think I would put in a coupling instead (or replace that length of pipe if not soldered), and move the union to the other side of the reducer. I'd want as few fittings as possible subjected to that 180 psi long-term. Not being a professional, I have no idea if that's warranted.
+1. If the seating faces are smooth, you shouldn't need to crank it down.
You might check with a plumbing supply house on high-pressure unions. I know on hp gas unions, they have a captured o-ring on the seating face. Dunno if that exists for water or not though.
Alternately I think I would put in a coupling instead (or replace that length of pipe if not soldered), and move the union to the other side of the reducer. I'd want as few fittings as possible subjected to that 180 psi long-term. Not being a professional, I have no idea if that's warranted.
Re: Plumbing help!
Before I answer, I have to tell you that I don't know the codes out here. They are different in every state. I was only ever an apprentice plumber also. I got a better job offer, and never made it until full blown journeyman.
However, in my experience 180 pounds pressure is pretty common. Especially in Mountainous areas where they must overcome gravity for some houses, but not for others. You need to have a PRV installed when this is the case. Which is what you said you did earlier. You don't actually need the tape for the union, because the flanged nipple where it meets the union female is where it actually seals. The plumbers that I worked for told me to put it on there anyway, because after 10 or 20 years of corrosion, it makes it easier to break the joint if you have some teflon in there.
OK coming to the point, either your nipple is messed up, or you are not getting enough torque on the joint. You probably don't want to hear this but in my experience the easiest way to fix it is replace the nipple really quick. it takes $2 and 5 minutes to re-sweat the pipe.
I remember messing up some nipples when I was new, because they absorb more heat than do other joints, and tend to warp. Seeing as you used a leaf blower to cool them down again real quick my vote says the joint is warped.
A trick the guys showed me is when you are sweating the new union, hook a pair of vice grips to it. This will act like a heat sink and absorb the unnecessary heat. Let the new union cool down all by itself, and try to get it the bare minimum hot! Just don't grab the vice grips with bare hands afterword.
Good Luck!
Before I answer, I have to tell you that I don't know the codes out here. They are different in every state. I was only ever an apprentice plumber also. I got a better job offer, and never made it until full blown journeyman.
However, in my experience 180 pounds pressure is pretty common. Especially in Mountainous areas where they must overcome gravity for some houses, but not for others. You need to have a PRV installed when this is the case. Which is what you said you did earlier. You don't actually need the tape for the union, because the flanged nipple where it meets the union female is where it actually seals. The plumbers that I worked for told me to put it on there anyway, because after 10 or 20 years of corrosion, it makes it easier to break the joint if you have some teflon in there.
OK coming to the point, either your nipple is messed up, or you are not getting enough torque on the joint. You probably don't want to hear this but in my experience the easiest way to fix it is replace the nipple really quick. it takes $2 and 5 minutes to re-sweat the pipe.
I remember messing up some nipples when I was new, because they absorb more heat than do other joints, and tend to warp. Seeing as you used a leaf blower to cool them down again real quick my vote says the joint is warped.
A trick the guys showed me is when you are sweating the new union, hook a pair of vice grips to it. This will act like a heat sink and absorb the unnecessary heat. Let the new union cool down all by itself, and try to get it the bare minimum hot! Just don't grab the vice grips with bare hands afterword.
Good Luck!
Re: Plumbing help!
I pre-solder the pipe and nut, then while the nut is still hot heat it and the pipe together, slide them together and let it cool. That way you have a good contact all around inside the joint without overheating anything.
I pre-solder the pipe and nut, then while the nut is still hot heat it and the pipe together, slide them together and let it cool. That way you have a good contact all around inside the joint without overheating anything.
Re: Plumbing help!
This is probably what I will end up doing. I have a spare union and the PRV has a built in union so I can get both sections out (which is why I wanted the second union in the first place).
Thanks Dan, and everyone else.
This is probably what I will end up doing. I have a spare union and the PRV has a built in union so I can get both sections out (which is why I wanted the second union in the first place).
Thanks Dan, and everyone else.
Re: Plumbing help!
Check the union mating faces to be sure surplus solder didn't end up on them. You should probably also re sequence your assembly to the following:
1. Ball valve @ street pressure
2. Threaded nipple or copper pipe w/ threaded adapters to PR valve.
3. Threaded adapter out of PR valve to union.
As long as the union is coplanar with the threaded fittings on the PR valve, replacement won't be a problem. You'll just have to re - dope the threads when you service it.
BTW, I'd place a pressure gauge (or a Schrader valve) in the house side of the line to verify the PR valve is working. It couldn't hurt to know when it fails. Be sure it's a 0-200 psi gauge if you're getting 180 psi street pressure.
I bet you've had some garden hoses with embolisms at that pressure. :rotflm:
Check the union mating faces to be sure surplus solder didn't end up on them. You should probably also re sequence your assembly to the following:
1. Ball valve @ street pressure
2. Threaded nipple or copper pipe w/ threaded adapters to PR valve.
3. Threaded adapter out of PR valve to union.
As long as the union is coplanar with the threaded fittings on the PR valve, replacement won't be a problem. You'll just have to re - dope the threads when you service it.
BTW, I'd place a pressure gauge (or a Schrader valve) in the house side of the line to verify the PR valve is working. It couldn't hurt to know when it fails. Be sure it's a 0-200 psi gauge if you're getting 180 psi street pressure.
I bet you've had some garden hoses with embolisms at that pressure. :rotflm:
I'm looking for an informed opinion here: The leak appears to have stopped on it's own. It's been almost 24 hours and no new drops have formed at the joint. Should I still take it apart and attempt to make it better, or leave well enough alone?
If it ain't broke, don't fix it. At least you have all the ideas should it start to leak again.
George
+50 on all above posts, one thing I didnt see mentioned; it is a very good possibility that there is some of that tape stuck in the union seat. Happens sometimes, I always use teflon paste not tape on unions. I have also seen alot of plumbers actually use the paste right on the seat itself.
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