Negative rake scrapers?

David Turner

David
Corporate Member
As I continue to struggle with getting a smooth cut with my bowl gouge, I look for a better way than the 80-grit sanding paper. Lot of hype on YouTube about negative rake scrapers being the solution to tear out.
I have a regular scraper that I have tried, and it does little to nothing to improve the tear out. Any of you bowl turners have any experience with negative rake scrapers?
Is it worth my grinding a secondary bevel on top of my present scraper or purchasing a negative rake scraper?
 
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Leviblue

Kevin
Corporate Member
Have you tried a carbide tipped turning tool to finish up the surface? It's essentially a negative rake scrapper.
I've had success with them.
 

bob vaughan

Bob Vaughan
Senior User
What's called negative rake scrapers has been around a long time. I first saw it demonstrated by Ray Key in the late 1990s. He just tilted the regular scraper tool up at a 15º or so angle and went for it. His experience and skill resulted in beautiful results. I think there were some tip tools that used HSS ground cutters at that time also.

The "negative rake" is actually a tool tip grind to better facilitate shear scraping. Grinding the tip off of an expensive HSS tool always rankled me because of the waste of money. On the other hand, I don't use the big scrapers I have now anyway. The kicker about grinding the negative rake on a scraper is that the bottom of the scraper is generally flat and lays flat on the tool rest. That would be the fatal flaw to re-grinding an existing scraper.
Shear scraping needs to be far more dynamic for best results since the intended surface is curved. I make my own out of old planer knives for the cutters and regular round steel sticks with a 15" slant cut on the ends to mount the planer knife chip.

Outside curves are easily done with straight cutters, but the inside is a different story. That cutter needs to be curved.
A very, very light touch is required. The shaving produced is so fine as to be weightless if dropped in the palm of your hand.
Some photos I had handy. I hope others will share their own photos of the process.

1     nrs a - 1.jpg

Some of the scrapers I've made over the years. There are some tip tools in there that don't apply to this thread.

1     nrs c - 1.jpg

testing a different and more convenient way of shear scraping the outside of a bowl.

1     nrs b - 1.jpg

A shear scraped area cleaning up what was done with a bowl gouge.


1     nrs b - 2.jpg

Another view.
 

bob vaughan

Bob Vaughan
Senior User
Found this photo of what the shavings should look like.

Mike Davis has a wonderful shot of comparing carbide tipped tool cuts to a well sharpened shear scraper.

1     nrs d - 1.jpg
 

Dee2

Board of Directors, Vice President
Gene
Staff member
Corporate Member
I scrape, and when I scrape, I use negative rake and/or regular grind. I find I must resharpen every 30-40 seconds of turning. Can go longer, but if I'm cleaning up tear out, keeping a sharp edge is necessary. YMMV. Increasing the density of the tearout can be helpful. Glue, shellac, etc. can be helpful.
 

bob vaughan

Bob Vaughan
Senior User
Good point. Another plus about shear scraping is that it produces observable shavings that float down and reduces significantly the time sanding.
 

wndopdlr

wally
Senior User
Having seen the hype about NRS, I bought a cheap Benjamin's Best standard scraper and shaped my own. They do work, but my go to tool is a standard scraper tilted as noted. If shear scraping roll your tool so that the blade is 45* to the surface while maintaining the 15* downward tilt.
 

petebucy4638

Pete
Corporate Member
As I continue to struggle with getting a smooth cut with my bowl gouge, I look for a better way than the 80-grit sanding paper. Lot of hype on YouTube about negative rake scrapers being the solution to tear out.
I have a regular scraper that I have tried, and it does little to nothing to improve the tear out. Any of you bowl turners have any experience with negative rake scrapers?
Is it worth my grinding a secondary bevel on top of my present scraper or purchasing a negative rake scraper?
One of the selling points of negative rake scrapers is that they are safer than traditional scrapers, and that is very likely true. I avoid using scrapers as much as possible. But here are situation where you just can't get bowl gouge in to. If you are making boxes with flat bottoms, you are almost certainly going to have to resort to using scrapers.

Richard Raffan is a very experienced wood turner. He is a big proponent of using scrapers, both inside and outside, on his projects. You might want to check his videos out.

One of the problems that many turners have with scraper is not properly sharpening and putting a burr on them. Just like a cabinet scraper, a bowl scraper needs to have a burr. Again, there are plenty of videos on YouTube that can show you how to do this. Richard Raffan uses his scrapers as shear scraper frequently. Shear scraping tends to produce a better finish than when using the scraper resting flat on the tool rest.

Finally, keep in mind, scrapers can produce very nice finishes on some wood, and other wood species don't scrape well at all. I have had white oak that scraped beautifully, and other pieces of white oak that were very difficult to scrape. If you watch Richard Raffan's YouTube videos, you should come away with a very solid foundation on how to use a scraper.
 

petebucy4638

Pete
Corporate Member
As I continue to struggle with getting a smooth cut with my bowl gouge, I look for a better way than the 80-grit sanding paper. Lot of hype on YouTube about negative rake scrapers being the solution to tear out.
I have a regular scraper that I have tried, and it does little to nothing to improve the tear out. Any of you bowl turners have any experience with negative rake scrapers?
Is it worth my grinding a secondary bevel on top of my present scraper or purchasing a negative rake scraper?
FYI. D-Way Tools has a great selection of M42 negative rake scrapers in sizes for boxes and bowls.
 

Mark Johnson

Mark
Corporate Member
FYI. D-Way Tools has a great selection of M42 negative rake scrapers in sizes for boxes and bowls.
I have a D way box negative rake that I use. It usually does a good job (and I agree with the sharpening every 40 seconds of use). I just touch the edge up with 600 grit wheel However, on splated woods or similar, sandpaper is still my go to though usually I can start at 120 grit.
 

JRedding

John
Corporate Member
I also use the D-Way negative rake for bowls and then have a couple of their box scrapers, and also touch up the edge on a 600 grit CBN. I took David Ellsworth’s class late last year and he said to turn in reverse if there are areas that won’t smooth out and you should be able to start at 180 grit - so far I’ve found that works (not surprising given the source).
 

Chaz

Chaz
Senior User
As I continue to struggle with getting a smooth cut with my bowl gouge, I look for a better way than the 80-grit sanding paper. Lot of hype on YouTube about negative rake scrapers being the solution to tear out.
I have a regular scraper that I have tried, and it does little to nothing to improve the tear out. Any of you bowl turners have any experience with negative rake scrapers?
Is it worth my grinding a secondary bevel on top of my present scraper or purchasing a negative rake scraper?
Yes it's definitely worth adding the secondary bevel. I've done it for years. I use 35 degree bottom bevel and 15 degree on top. dress the 35 degree bevel often to have the sharpest edge possible. Aim for thin, wispy shavings
 
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Mike Davis

Mike
Corporate Member
I know I will get fussed at for not answering the question and giving a “non-helpful” response…

But.

I think you should learn to use the bowl gouge properly so that you have no tear out and don’t need to scrape. In some rare instances I still need a final touch up, usually not for tear out but to get the final fluid curve that I want. Then I use a shear scraper like Bob Vaughn shows in his photo. I never present any tool at 90 degrees to the wood surface.
 

blackhawk

Brad
Corporate Member
I have a Carter & Sons negative rake scraper but rarely use it. Sometimes it does help when the wood is being really finicky. I use my standard scrapers 95% of the time. Play around with how you sharpen your scraper. What works for me most of the time is to file off the burr with a diamond file before sharpening. That gives a fresh burr off the grinding wheel. The other option that I use is to file off the burr after sharpening and then rolling up a new burr with a burnisher. This method gives me a fine burr that usually gives a great finish but doesn't last very long.

I'm not a purist, so I am not ashamed to scrape. I actually love scraping because it is just plain fun and that is what it's all about. I like seeing how uniform and fluffy of a shaving that I can get.

One other thing that helps me a lot is to mist the bowl with water on those final cuts. That will help with tear out also.
 

SabertoothBunny

SabertoothBunny
Corporate Member
Carbides are NOT negative rake scrapers. There are individual carbide tips you can get that are engineered as negative rake but aside from those all carbide cutters are just scraping tools. They are not designed to work as a native rake.

Negative take is a specific grind set to a tool. There are a variety of brands that sell HSS tools or special carbide tips with the negative rake profile. These are a big help with spalted and punky woods in particular. Technique is a big factor in clean cuts in addition to extremely sharp tools. Maybe have someone watch your technique to see if your angle is off which can leave a rough cut on end grain.
 

Barry Russell

Barry
Senior User
Over the years, I have found many turner have problems with scrapers. Scrapers work best when they have a wire edge and the handle of the tool somewhere intersects with the plane of the ceiling. if you scrape with a skew, you are using a nrgative rake scrape. Before buying a negative scraper or grinding the negative rake on a scraper, scrape with a skew and see if you like the resulto.
 

HITCH-

Hitch
Corporate Member
Carbides are NOT negative rake scrapers. There are individual carbide tips you can get that are engineered as negative rake but aside from those all carbide cutters are just scraping tools. They are not designed to work as a native rake.

I don't think that it's as black and white as that.

You can take a flat ground scraper and present it to the wood such that it cuts with a negative rake. Same scraper ;just being used differently. Same holds true for a carbide cutter tool.

I think that Captain Eddie explains it pretty well in this video.

 

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