Dust Collector Question

rcarmac

Robert
Corporate Member
If a single stage dust collection system has the same static pressure and air flow, per the mfg specs, as a 2 stage system, is the performance the same at the tool level.
 

Tarhead

Mark
Corporate Member
Published CFM specs rarely include piping, connectors, filter and other restrictions. Large dust collection systems are by design low static pressure, high flow. Static pressure on these units is a function of motor strength and length and height of the blower blade. This chart from Bill Pentz's site shows the performance characteristics of different combinations. From: https://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/dc_basics.php
1661799195502.png
 

tvrgeek

Scott
Corporate Member
Publishes specs are to be considered advertising at best. Down right BS usually.
Brand new, maybe, but a single stage will clog the HEPA filter with the first cut and the performance goes off a cliff. So, a single stage is basically worthless so the question is mute.

The ONLY way to judge is to measure with an aerometer. But even that is only a rough estimate depending on the shape of the inlet as velocity will vary across the diameter.

A 30 micron bag is a filter to keep floor sweepings contained and to high power the DEADLY fine dust into your air where you are sure to breath them. You want less than 5 micron filtering.

The above table uses some magic unknown blowers. They can differ by a lot. Bill's data is probably the best out there, but it still assumes way too much. ( FWIW, I own a CV 1500 and use his mini cyclone on my vac, so I am not picking on him, just that it is actually a very complicated fluid dynamics question and simple chart answers just by definition can't be very good.

There is a super DD on the forum for sale now. If a DIY, or if you have a single stage, grab it!
 

jgt1942

jgt
User
Any one have the Harvey or Laguna Dust Collector
I had the Harvey G700. At the time I had blades on my planer/joiner and spent considerable time cleaning the shavings out of the blocked intake on the G700. For me, it got to be such a pain I sold it. I'm in the process of converting a single-stage to a two-stage. However, I don't think it is powerful enough for my Hammer A3-31. It leaves a lot of chips around the A3-31. I'm leaning toward a Clearview (see https://www.clearvuecyclones.com/product/cv1450-single-phase/) unless I decide to put multiple smaller dust collectors in my shop. BTW, the A3-31 now has a helix head and would not present the problem of blocking the intake port. The improvement is like night and day! I'm very pleased with it.
 

Tarhead

Mark
Corporate Member
I had the Harvey G700. At the time I had blades on my planer/joiner and spent considerable time cleaning the shavings out of the blocked intake on the G700. For me, it got to be such a pain I sold it. I'm in the process of converting a single-stage to a two-stage. However, I don't think it is powerful enough for my Hammer A3-31. It leaves a lot of chips around the A3-31. I'm leaning toward a Clearview (see CV1450 Single Phase - Clear Vue Cyclones) unless I decide to put multiple smaller dust collectors in my shop. BTW, the A3-31 now has a helix head and would not present the problem of blocking the intake port. The improvement is like night and day! I'm very pleased with it.
I just saw that they are discounting that Clearview DC.
 

tvrgeek

Scott
Corporate Member
Probably caught up the backlog and now have too much inventory. I think we will see a lot of that. Harvey has been pushing sales almost every day. As I understand, big retail is way overstocked with things like clothing. Only tools I don't expect to see on sale are Festool. They just don't.

I have the ClearView 1500 (1450?) I wish I could hang it higher to make getting the bin in and out easier and I want to add the pressure sensor and bin full sensors from Oneida as I have overfilled it a couple of times. Planers can fill it up fast! I would have preferred the Oneida 3 HP to save the shop power but it was too long a back-order. It sure does suck though! I have an idea how to build a frame to hold the bin lid up to make emptying easier.
 

sean10780

Sean
User
I’m also in the process of deciding on a collector. I recently sold a Rockler 650 and im going to upgrade to either one of the following:

Oneida supercell: size is great but I think it’s underpowered for larger 4 inch ports but works well
Harvey g700 - space and power is a concern for this one though.

I then stumbled on the clearvue and saw the sale on the 1450. I emailed them and they said for a one man shop either the 1450 or 1700 would work for me. I’m concerned about space thought with this and the bin is an extra charge. But the 1450 is the same price as the supercell

Does anyone know how much space the clear vue takes up and how loud it is?
 

rcarmac

Robert
Corporate Member
I’m also in the process of deciding on a collector. I recently sold a Rockler 650 and im going to upgrade to either one of the following:

Oneida supercell: size is great but I think it’s underpowered for larger 4 inch ports but works well
Harvey g700 - space and power is a concern for this one though.

I then stumbled on the clearvue and saw the sale on the 1450. I emailed them and they said for a one man shop either the 1450 or 1700 would work for me. I’m concerned about space thought with this and the bin is an extra charge. But the 1450 is the same price as the supercell

Does anyone know how much space the clear vue takes up and how loud it is?
I looked at the cleavue and just don’t have the height for my small shop. It’s really tall. Have you looked at Laguna
 

sean10780

Sean
User
I looked at the cleavue and just don’t have the height for my small shop. It’s really tall. Have you looked at Laguna
The flux line? So they are not as powerful as the ClearVue and they are just as large and the reviews are not good.
 
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tvrgeek

Scott
Corporate Member
I looked at the cleavue and just don’t have the height for my small shop. It’s really tall. Have you looked at Laguna
I use the short bin, so mine is under 9 feet. I am tempted to box into the attic for the motor and raise it a little.
It is loud. How loud? Loud. I run 6 inch trunks. It is 5 HP so the most powerful motor. I used a 30A branch.

Unfortunately, it is a matter of physics that the taller the cyclone, the better it works.

System 3000 sure has gone up in price. Pre COVID it was about the same as the CV.

I had not heard about the shavings clogging the Harvey. Seems odd. Is their a bend, obstruction, flange, anything?
 

sean10780

Sean
User
I use the short bin, so mine is under 9 feet. I am tempted to box into the attic for the motor and raise it a little.
It is loud. How loud? Loud. I run 6 inch trunks. It is 5 HP so the most powerful motor. I used a 30A branch.

Unfortunately, it is a matter of physics that the taller the cyclone, the better it works.

System 3000 sure has gone up in price. Pre COVID it was about the same as the CV.

I had not heard about the shavings clogging the Harvey. Seems odd. Is their a bend, obstruction, flange, anything?
I just had a long conversation with the guys at Oneida about the V 3000, they recommended that for me over the supercell. The ClearVue 1450 is about $1000 cheaper but not as strong as the V 3000. Do you know how many dbs yours is? Oneida also has a new Boost model that costs $500 more and he basically told me that if you run two tools at once it will split the suction between both of them. i rarely do this, but it would be nice to have but the cost is a little higher than I wanted to spend. i was trying to keep it at a $3000 budget.
 

rcarmac

Robert
Corporate Member
It seems like everyone has a different trade off. Its just trying to figure out what trade off works for you. Thats where i am stuck
 

tvrgeek

Scott
Corporate Member
Ear muffs loud and there is a wall between me and the DC. A pure dB level as advertised is not really relevant. Your perception depends on the spectrum. A rating can play games depending on the weighting scale. Now, as I know a bit about acoustics ( built high end loudspeakers for many years) I do intent to attack the noise level. Mine sits in a corner with hard walls all around. The worst configuration for sound.

There ate two ways to make the system quieter. The first is muffle. Mufflers, regardless of technology and all the ads for magic hot rod mufflers, reduce the efficiency. Just physics. You can muffle by restriction or by absorption. Both reduce flow. Sorry. Or, you can be more careful in design. Things like carefully spaced notches on the impellor so the trailing edge vortices harmonics to not complement. ( not seen one on a DC) Good attention to every edge and transition. CV is not the best in how their plastic is overlapped. How you duct corners, junctions, gates and basically everything in the flow is implemented. I have not seen how Harvey deals with these issues, but they claim lower noise. However, they have lower flow.

I kind of doubt the 5 HP CV is not as strong as the 3 HP Oneida. Nothing against them, but there are so many ways to tell the truth, but tell a different story it is hard to compare on paper. Oneida is fully respectable, but they are in competition! ( notice the CV is not in their comparison chart), but it is a 5 HP) You would have to hook both units up on a representation of your ductwork and tools and measure the airflow and lift. They would likely be different, but which best meets your requirements is an unknown. Don't know what that "boost" is. To split the flow you use a "Y" and gates. CV has an option for a slightly larger impellor.

Again, there is nothing more expensive than buying the wrong tool. My single stage bag, then converted to media filters, was a total waste of money as I still had to buy the CV and re-duct a third time.

Just to keep you confused, I have never heard owners of either CV or Oneida be unhappy or identify a major flaw. It is my belief the biggest problem is not a DC big enough, but the horrible design of tools. Knowing a little about fluid dynamics from studying automotive intake and exhaust systems, it is clear that engineering topic has not reached tool designers. Take the lower 4 inch port in my Harvey band saw. A big grate in it and square edges on the inside. Doing rough calculations ( real ones are really really hard) it is about as effective as a 1 inch port with the proper flair. In other words, pretty useless. The upper port opens to basically free air with nothing to pull across the band gullets. The big 6 inch port into my table saw is pulling from a low pressure plenum. Again, nothing to push the dust from the blade gullets so it carries them around and flings them out the top.

Some folks like the steel of the Oneida. Easier to ground, but I found a couple turns of copper wire around my cyclone does a decent job of draining the static. Without it, I did blow up two infrared bin full detectors. Inadequate design of the sensor as it was not "suitable for use case", but that's a different story.

Folks remember, the reason for a two stage is to force out all the fine (dangerous) dust before it gets to the HEPA filer. If you don't, then the single stage will work as well as the two, for about 5 minutes. After that, the filters clog and performance drops like a rock. The better the cyclone, the less fines make it to the filter canister. You do get some loss on a two stage over the identical clean single stage. Is the fine dust that important? Well, I bought my drill press from the widow of a woodworker who did not have a DC system. Emphysema. Non-smoker. Proof? Of course not, but a darn good hint!

OK, it is time for a pint of Gaelic ale. Enough blabber. :)
 

rcarmac

Robert
Corporate Member
Is there such a thing as having too big of a motor for your system. By the numbers, it looks like a 2hp would work for me but a 3hp is only $200 more.
 

Tarhead

Mark
Corporate Member
Look at the fan data table I posted above. Depending on your fan diameter and blade size, piping diameter, length, turns, connectors and static resistance you may not gain a lot.
 

jgt1942

jgt
User
Any one have the Harvey or Laguna Dust Collector
I had the Harvey G700, at the time my planner/joiner did not have the Shelix head, Because of this, the input to the G700 would jam within seconds. I spent more time cleaning it out than using it, it drove me nuts and I sold it. I went back to the HF 2HP but it is not strong enough for the Hammer A3-31 planner/joiner. I had planned to use a 4" cyclone separator with it, but I'm thinking the 2HP is not going to do any better.

I'm thinking of getting the ClearView CV1950 Single Phase or CV1700 Single Phase (see CV1700 Single Phase - Clear Vue Cyclones) The 1700 should be good enough for me, I only run one tool at a time.

Laguna does make a great product but I think you get a better value with the ClearView $2900. NOTE the ClearView is NOT HEPA rated whereas the Laguna P|Flux:3 is but now the cost is $4000. The Laguna C|Flux (MERV 14) does compare to the ClearView (MERV 15).

Search for Bill Pentz and you can get a wealth of info and spend hours. Bill has a working relationship with ClearView

Not to confuse you more but the Oneida V-3000 uses a MERV16+ GE filter with "99.97% of particles captured down to 0.3 micron in size" (which is the HEPA standard). They now offer a newer "Supercell" dust collector, see https://www.oneida-air.com/dust-collectors/new-systems/supercell which has the same standard. Blacktail Studio installed the Oneida 5HP Dust Gorilla Pro SMART Boost Dust Collector (see
) which cost about $4500+ (this will break the piggy bank).

Most likely your needs would be met with the Oneida Supercell Stationary High-Pressure Dust Collector for $2800 for the 30 gal collection drum. I don't know if you can get it without the drum. I recently picked up a 55 gal white plastic food drum for $20. I then cut it down a bit just to ensure I would not be able to completely fill it. 55 gal of sawdust is HEAVY.

BTW HEPA is NOT MERV rated because it exceeds the MERV ratings. Ideally, you want a HEPA-rated unit.

Dust collection will present you with numerous rabbit holes so you can widen your education and get into a large number of discussions.

Another option is to build a Thien baffle, see J. Phil Thien's Projects Several years ago I build a Thien baffle and used it with a 2HP Harbor Freight unit, the performance was outstanding.

Good luck with your progress and keep us posted.
 

rcarmac

Robert
Corporate Member
So I just made a purchase. This has been the single most difficult decision in woodworking I have made. You read all the posts and reviews trying to find out what will work for your setup. After several months I just made a call and went with it. By the way, I will have a bag dust collector up for sale soon.
 

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