Bridal Chest Lid

[jg2259]

I have built my first large furniture project, a bridal chest (44"L x 23 1/2"W x 22"h), made from Sapele (frame) and African Mahogany (panels). Now I am focusing on the lid, which is where my problem lies. I was going to make the lid from quarter sawn ribbon stripe Sapele to match the frame, however, I could not locally source that material, and mail order proved to be too expensive.
So I purchased 3/4" Baltic Birch plywood, and veneered it with the ribbon striped Sapele paper backed veneer using contact cement.
My plan is to frame this plywood lid with African Mahogany with miter joints and tongue and groove joints. I plan on using my newly acquired Freud 99-036 adjustable tongue and groove bit to accomplish this.

My question is, how do I go about framing this panel (19 3/4" x 41"), using
2 1/4" rail and stile pieces, with an overhang of 3/4" on sides and front, leaving me with tight miters and joints?

I don't have much experience with miter joints, especially on this large scale, and I'm afraid I'm going to screw this up. Is there a method that will assure me an accurate job?

I have done some research on this, but I would like to get some input from some of you on this forum.

Do I cut the miters on the long pieces first? Should I build a miter shooting board (no experience)? Should I reinforce the miters with loose tenons or dowels? Should I glue the tongue and groove joints?

Thanks for any and all guidance that you might offer.

Jim



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[dancam]

That is an extremely beautiful piece and should be very proud of your work. I would suggest that instead of a mitered frame on the lid go with mortise & tenon joints. You can then peg them for additional strength. Since the center panel is plywood, seasonal wood movement should not be a problem.

The M&T joint will be much stronger than mitered joint and with decorative pegs will stand out as a nice detail. Whatever way you go you've done a really nice job so far. Thanks for sharing.

Dan C.

 

[CDPeters]

Very very nice work and beautiful piece there Jim, well done!

You are right, if my assumption that the lid frame and the panel will be flush is correct, this is tricky. Because you need to tongue and groove the panel to the frame pieces, this "locks you in" to the required precise length for the frame pieces.

Dan is right, it would be somewhat easier to do M&Ts on the frame corners - but if I was set on doing mitered corners, here is how I would approach it:

- First decide on the depth of the tongue and groove for the panel - for 3/4" material I would probably choose a 1/4" thickness for the tongue, and a 3/8" depth.
- To get the panel size: Overall - (2 x rail width) + (2 x groove depth) For the dimensions you gave - (chest is 44 x 23 1/2, 3/4" reveal on the lid, 2 1/4" frame width) the panel will be 40 1/4" x 19 3/4" overall including the tongue, and 39 1/2" x 19" excluding the tongue. But double check my calculations!
- Did I mention to double check all calculations everything?
- Next, mill the tongue centered on the panel with your favorite method - router or dado set. Then mill the groove centered in the rail to fit. Mill the groove maybe a 1/64" deeper than the tongue to insure a tight fit of the frame to the panel.
- Now you can fit a frame piece to the panel and mark the exact point where the panel end meets the frame piece on the face.
- Set up the SCMS very carefully for an accurate 45, or use a table saw mitering sled - either way, do enough test cuts to satisfy yourself that the setup yields a square corner.
- Cut one end of the frame piece, then fit it to the panel with the fresh 45 miter matched up at one end, and mark the other end. Make that 45 cut and fit the piece to be sure it matches up well. Mark each frame piece as you go with the side of the panel it matches with.
- Then go around to next side, cut one 45 in a fresh frame piece to match up with one end, fit it with the first piece and mark the cut for the other end. Fit it and make sure again the inside corners match up.
- Now you have one long frame piece and one short piece. Use these as templates to cut the remaining 2 pieces.
- Dry fit and tweek till you are satisfied with the fit.

I don't have a shooting board (but probably should!) - I understand that most feel that is the best way to do "perfect" miters, but I have no experience currently... The only suggestion I would offer if you choose this opportunity to make one is to practice, practice, practice!

Keys to success:

1. Double check the initial calculations and be sure the panel is correctly sized and square
2. Be sure your setup for cutting the miters give you an accurate 45
3. The second miter cut on a frame piece is the critical one, dont be afraid to start long and sneek up on the correct fit.

You only have one shot at the panel, but hopefully you have extra frame material, so once you get the panel correctly sized and tongues milled, extra frame material gives you a do-over or 2 until you are satisfied with the fit.

Lastly, 2 1/4" frame pieces should give you about 3 1/2" on the miter joint. I think I would elect to reinforce that joint with a #10 biscuit, but "cheat" the biscuit slot to the inside corner so it doesn't blow through the edge.

Hope that helps, and again - a beautiful piece, I'm sure it will be treasured.

UPDATE: Jim - I already found an error in my calcs above - I will work on recalcing tonight and maybe a sketchup too... sorry about that!

 

[CDPeters]

OK Jim, I did a sketchup, and realized your panel is just the right size already... I apologize for my mis-calculation... unless your raw frame stock is wider that 2 1/4, and you are willing to make the frame wider, milling tongue and groove for the panel/frame interface is not practical at this point.

All the above still applies if you are willing to just edge glue the frame to the panel, but the tongue and groove makes it easier to keep everything lined up in glue up IMHO.

You could always spline the panel/frame joint...

Here's a quickie Sketchup for illustration (includes the T&G)

 

[jg2259]

Thanks Dan. M & T never crossed my mind, and I'm sure it would be easier than miters, especially since I have no experience with them. Plus the lid would then somewhat match the frame as there are no miters in the frame.


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[jg2259]

Wow CD!!! Thanks so much for the detailed response. This is why I love this forum, so much experienced woodworkers willing to offer help to someone. I don't post often, but I read every question and response, and learn so much from you all.

CD, you have really given me the inspiration to give the miters a go. I may not use them in the end if I can't get them perfect, but since I have plenty of stock on hand, this will be the perfect chance for me to try a technique for sometime in the future. Thank you both for the kind words about my work and the advice that you have given.


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[jg2259]

Another question comes to mind. I'm still going to use T & G to attach the frame to the panel. Does the tongue go on the frame pieces or the panel?


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[JohnnyR]

Another question comes to mind. I'm still going to use T & G to attach the frame to the panel. Does the tongue go on the frame pieces or the panel?


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Part of the answer depends on how clean a cut you can make on the plywood. If it's a flush joint, any tearout will be visible. I suggest that you finish the cut with a spiral router bit (down-cut if cutting on the face). You'll also have to be aware of the other side as it will be visible.
My suggestion would be not to use T&G but to just use a dado in the frame for the panel. I think it would look better with the frame and panels of the case. Better yet, if you could find the wood, go with your first inclination and match the side panels. (See the thread on Q. Sapele)

Great work so far!

 

[CDPeters]

I agree with John on which side the tongue goes on. The critical factor is you want a clean edge on the veneer, no chipout, for a crisp clean joint between the frame and the panel veneer...

Maybe I misunderstood, but I believe your design is the frame and panel are the same thickness (~3/4"), so not a frame and panel, but rather a "banded" panel...

If you already have a nice crisp edge on the veneer, and you have enough extra width on the frame stock, put the groove in the panel and the tongue in the frame. I've just always done it the other way out of habit, but the more I think about it, the more it feels like groove in the panel is a better idea.

 

[gritz]

Jim, You have done a beautiful job so far! One light pass with your new bits should tell you if tearout on the edge of the panel will be an issue. I would make up a small test panel if you have enough material. The one bit of information lacking for me is the thickness of the available A-M material for the frame. I can foresee chirren jumping up on the top, so strength would be something I would consider. Here are my suggestions for thought.

1- If the frame is thick enough to stand proud of the plywood by a sixteenth or more, you could dado the edges of the frame to swallow the panel, add a spline or some biscuits, and stay with the M&T look for the frame. The outer edge could have a routed ogee to suggest the paneled look of the sides. Pretty much what Dan said.

2- If the frame is limited to 3/4", (or you just want to stay with that dimension,) you could edge band the plywood, maybe with a small bead, and do a reverse panel look for the frame. The choice of corners would be your call, but M&T would be stronger.

Whatever the final decision you make, if it was me, I would at least make up a small corner and put it on the carcass as a visual reality check before committing. Good luck!

 

[chris_goris]

Jim,
Youve done such a great job on the rest of it to me (dont take this the wrong way) it seems like it will cheapen it. I dont know where youre located, but Ive got a ton of African Mahogany that you could make a solid top from . you wouldnt even need that much. Let me know

 

[jg2259]

Thank you guys. John, I will have to do a test cut with the router to see if there is any tearout cutting the tongue on the panel. If it really doesn't make a difference, I was thinking I'd be safer making the groove in the panel as CD mentioned.

Gritz, the panel is 3/4" and the frame just a hair over 3/4" to allow me to flush trim to panel thickness.

Thanks Chris. I have access to African Mahogany, but I really like the ribbon striping of the Sapele for the lid. I just wish I could have sourced more of the solid Sapele, but the Sapele paper backed veneer looks just as good if not better than the solid Sapele that I did find. I did make a solid top of flat sawn Sapele, but it looked like crap and that's why I decided on the veneer.

The more I think about this, I'm really tempted to just use my DowelMax to attach the frame to the panel.


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[jg2259]

I'm sorry, but I have another question about this lid.

Before I glue the edge pieces to the panel, I would like to put a profile on the outside of the edge pieces.

What profile do most of you use?
Do you put the profile only on bottom of lid? Top?
Or both?

Thanks,

Jim

 

[jg2259]

I also need some guidance on gluing the edging pieces to the panel.
I decided to use the DowelMax to align the edging to the panel. The edging is just a tad under 1/16" thicker than the panel, and I plan on flush trimming the edging to match the panel after the glue up.
Not sure of the best procedure and steps would give me the best results.


Do I cut the short end pieces first, leaving them a little long, then trim them with a block plane to match the long edge of the panel?

Or do I cut the long edge pieces first, and do the same to them?

The long pieces will be the final length of the lid, so that the end grain only shows on the side of the lid.

Thanks for any help you might offer, and again, I'm sorry for all the stupid questions. But I've put too much work into this lid to mess it up now.

Jim

 

[JohnnyR]

A little confused but it sounds like you are making it look like M&T but using dowels instead.( in addition to dowels in panels).

If this is correct, and you use dowels all around, ( or dowels on panels plus M&T frame) mechanically you have to attach the end pieces first, no choice. Since this is not a "floating" panel, your measurements on the short pieces have to be spot on.

If you're not comfortable with getting it perfect, make the short pieces a little long, glue them and then rip the whole assembly before attaching side pieces (also before doweling the side). Make them a little wider than needed and after attaching the sides you can rip/crosscut the whole assembly to final size.

The edge profile should always (almost) be done after assembly or you will have a h*ll of a time matching up everything. It also helps blowout on at least one side of the end grain.

I'd suggest either a simple round over or do the same as the inside of your side panels. Just a 1/8 round over on the bottom of the lid.

Happy woodworking!

 

[Canuck]

I also need some guidance on gluing the edging pieces to the panel.
I decided to use the DowelMax to align the edging to the panel. The edging is just a tad under 1/16" thicker than the panel, and I plan on flush trimming the edging to match the panel after the glue up.
Not sure of the best procedure and steps would give me the best results.


Do I cut the short end pieces first, leaving them a little long, then trim them with a block plane to match the long edge of the panel?

Or do I cut the long edge pieces first, and do the same to them?

The long pieces will be the final length of the lid, so that the end grain only shows on the side of the lid.

Thanks for any help you might offer, and again, I'm sorry for all the stupid questions. But I've put too much work into this lid to mess it up now.

Jim

Last year I built a simple coffee table for one of my daughters using 3/4" oak ply for the top and shelf with solid oak edging surrounding the panel(s).

I too use the Dowelmax for most all of my joinery. I cut the long pieces of oak for the sides to the exact length of the plywood panel and cut the end pieces slightly oversized. Pics follow...........

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When drilling the dowel holes, I just made sure that I registered the Dowelmax to the top(s) of both the banding and panel(s) so that any flush cutting and/or sanding happened on the underside of the top and shelf.

Wayne

(BTW. That is going to be one awesome chest you doing there. Very nicely done!)

 

[jg2259]

JohnnyR, that is correct. I am making it look like M & T, but using dowels instead. I cut the end (short) pieces first and they feel dead on, but I will have to see how they line up after I dowel them. Thanks for the advice. I will use the 1/8" round over on the bottom of the lid, after I get it all together.

Wayne, that is a beautiful coffee table. Your joints are so tight, I just hope mine turn out that good. I took JohnnyR's advice about cutting and attaching the end pieces first, as I don't want the end grain showing on the front of the lid. But looking at your coffee table, I don't think it matters much which way you do it.

Thanks for the response.

Jim

 

[Jeff]

A great job on this build and I really like it but there's "work to do" yet and I'm not hijacking this thread.

The chest lid has set dimensions and a veneered plywood panel that goes within that lid frame and some sort of joinery to secure it. Retro-plan and do it differently in retrospect?

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Just curious how many others might approach it.