Anyone have their table saw arbor pulley balanced?

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kooshball

David
Corporate Member
I am having Grizzly send me a replacement pulley for my g1023z as the last replacement pulley I bough was out of balance and resulted in premature bearing failure. If this one arrives out of balance as well I am going to have to attempt to fix it...so where can I send out a pulley to get balanced and how much should I expect to pay?

Thx
 

scsmith42

New User
Scott Smith
Some high performance automotive machine shops have engine balancers. They might be able to balance it if they have an expanding arbor that would fit it.

I'd start with the machine shops first (and think that a machine shop on 751 about 1 mile N of 64 may have a balancer.)
 

ehpoole

Administrator
Ethan
It is also worth keeping in mind that your *motor* may also be in need of balancing, especially if it is one of the cheaper Asian-made motors. So it may not just be your pulley.

That said many pulleys are out of balance due to the cut-away for the keyway and setscrews.
 

kooshball

David
Corporate Member
The motor runs so smooth and quiet when it is disconnected from the belts it is almost silent, but the pulley is so far off that you almost don't even need to mount it in the arbor with bearings to let it find bottom.

Fred, I will have to measure to be sure but you may have a balancing machine or a balanced pulley?

Thx

It is also worth keeping in mind that your *motor* may also be in need of balancing, especially if it is one of the cheaper Asian-made motors. So it may not just be your pulley.

That said many pulleys are out of balance due to the cut-away for the keyway and setscrews.
 

FredP

Fred
Corporate Member
I have a spare unisaw pulley. It came with my uni and I changed the motor out and needed to replace the pulley. the old motor was 1725RPM and the new one is 3450RPM. The pulley looks to be balanced and is around 5" +/-. it has a 5/8" hole and takes 3 belts. If it will work for you come get it. It is just collecting dust here.
 

junquecol

Bruce
Senior User
Another thought. The actual shaft may be undersized, or bore in sheave could be over sized. When the sheave is mounted and set screw tightened, the sheave may actually be an eccentric, rather than a round, as compared to center line of shaft. Bore could be not in center of sheave either.
 

FredP

Fred
Corporate Member
I may have mis spoke on the arbor size. I will measure it if you think you can use it. my memory is short or shot.... take ur pick.:rolleyes:
 

kooshball

David
Corporate Member
Fred,

thanks for the offer but I think mine is the "new" size that you have on your saw...around 3" dia.

hopefully the free replacement from Grizzly will be balanced.

I may have mis spoke on the arbor size. I will measure it if you think you can use it. my memory is short or shot.... take ur pick.:rolleyes:
 

Willemjm

Willem
Corporate Member
I am having Grizzly send me a replacement pulley for my g1023z as the last replacement pulley I bough was out of balance and resulted in premature bearing failure. If this one arrives out of balance as well I am going to have to attempt to fix it...so where can I send out a pulley to get balanced and how much should I expect to pay?

Thx

Curious as to why you had to replace the original pulley?

I have the same saw, never done any work to it, probably time to adjust the belts a little.
 

Mark Gottesman

New User
Mark
When I rebuilt my Craftsman (1950's) saw I replaced the arbor pulley and the motor pulley (pot metal) with a set of machined steel pulleys. Don't think they were balanced, but they had a consistant diameter that was centered for the belt to run on. that, along with a link belt smoothed it out a lot.
 

ehpoole

Administrator
Ethan
I had a few more questions/thoughts on this as well...

Firstly, I wanted to say that a 3" diameter pulley would have to be extraordinarily out of balance to really contribute substantially to bearing failure at the typical 3600-1800 RPM that most tablesaw induction motors run at. The pulley's mass pales in comparison to that of the rotor's. Otherwise, machined pulleys are generally of better quality that cast pulleys.

Secondly, I wanted to ask whether you know for certain that the original bearing was of high quality and undamaged during installation? It is very easy to damage a bearing during installation if you try to force (e.g. hammer) it into place. Such a bearing will seem to run fine for a good while, but will fail prematurely due to the damage inflected during installation. In a short time the bearing itself will become a source of vibration which will ultimately accelerate the bearing's failure.

Thirdly, as I mentioned earlier, (especially) if the motor used in the saw is Asian-sourced it is quite possible (even probable) that the motor's rotor is considerably more out of balance than the pulley. This can happen in non-Asian motors as well, it just seems to be more common with the Asian made motors.

I mention all the the above in the hopes that your answers/assessments of them will spare you from possible wild-goose chase. Otherwise, I wish you all the best in your quest!
 

kooshball

David
Corporate Member
I appreciate all the comments so let me try and shed some light on this so far...

I have no idea on the quality of the original bearings but set number 3 are now in the mail. I originally change the bearings, arbor and pulley a few months ago due to vibration issues and lateral play in the arbor due to what looked like an over tightened arbor and resulting compressed bearings from the factory.

I replaced the above components in Jan (and did not beat any bearings) which made things quite a bit smoother until Friday night when vibrations returned. These were bad so I stopped and began the inspection process to find a tactile "spot" in the arbor rotation where I could feel something (shot bearing(s)). It was during the free-wheeling of the arbor that I noticed how it would literally rock to the exact same spot every time and thus I assume that the largest component (pulley) is out of balance.

This could be due to the failure of the bearings but what caused that soo soon? Perhaps I just had defective bearings...but at least Grizzly has sent a new pulley so I have another data point.

Thx

I had a few more questions/thoughts on this as well...

Firstly, I wanted to say that a 3" diameter pulley would have to be extraordinarily out of balance to really contribute substantially to bearing failure at the typical 3600-1800 RPM that most tablesaw induction motors run at. The pulley's mass pales in comparison to that of the rotor's. Otherwise, machined pulleys are generally of better quality that cast pulleys.

Secondly, I wanted to ask whether you know for certain that the original bearing was of high quality and undamaged during installation? It is very easy to damage a bearing during installation if you try to force (e.g. hammer) it into place. Such a bearing will seem to run fine for a good while, but will fail prematurely due to the damage inflected during installation. In a short time the bearing itself will become a source of vibration which will ultimately accelerate the bearing's failure.

Thirdly, as I mentioned earlier, (especially) if the motor used in the saw is Asian-sourced it is quite possible (even probable) that the motor's rotor is considerably more out of balance than the pulley. This can happen in non-Asian motors as well, it just seems to be more common with the Asian made motors.

I mention all the the above in the hopes that your answers/assessments of them will spare you from possible wild-goose chase. Otherwise, I wish you all the best in your quest!
 

merrill77

Master Scrap Maker
Chris
Is it a machined or cast pulley?

I was able to buy an aftermarket upgrade for my Delta contractor saw that included machined replacements for each pulley. I don't remember the price of the set ($45 comes to mind), but it was probably less than the time/cost of taking yours to a machine shop for custom work.

I am having Grizzly send me a replacement pulley for my g1023z as the last replacement pulley I bough was out of balance and resulted in premature bearing failure. If this one arrives out of balance as well I am going to have to attempt to fix it...so where can I send out a pulley to get balanced and how much should I expect to pay?

Thx
 

ehpoole

Administrator
Ethan
A few more questions to better understand what you are describing...

Very important: When you describe the rocking behavior, is this test being performed with the bare motor shaft, or with the pulley attached? With or without the belt attached? If it is with the pulley attached the issue may be related to the pulley, but not in the way you are thinking -- and it may not even involve the bearing, this is why I ask.

Are the bearings shielded or unshielded (i.e. do they include a dust shield)?

Do you ever use the saw to cut any material other than wood?

What is the environment your saw resides in, is there any opportunity for sand or grit to get into the saw (including wind-blown sand if you have sandy soil and an open garage door)?

Have you checked the motor's *rear* bearing as well? Any play in this bearing will show up at the other end of the motor.

Are the bearings tight to the shaft (did you have to heat them to install?) and are they tight in the motor housing. It is important that there be no free play for the shaft to vibrate within the bearing, or for the bearing to vibrate within the motor housing.

When the bearings were heated, were you careful to insure they did not get too hot (you don't want to loose the grease or, at the extreme, soften the steel)?

I ask because it is very odd to have just one spot in the bearing that behaves this way, it would require a good deal of significant repetitive shock at precisely the same point in the rotation to distort a (good quality) hardened bearing like this to the point that you could actually *see* the deflection. Especially since the pulley is not the largest mass acting on the bearings -- the largest mass by far is that of the rotor -- and the impact of balance on the bearing is also a function of the offset of that imbalance from the center point of rotation (e.g. a given error in balance is amplified the further outward you move from the center) and a 3" pulley is not that great of a diameter -- it is probably even a smaller diameter than that of your rotor, so the pulley imbalance would have to be considerable.

Sorry for so many questions, hopefully we can figure out what is going on.
 

Mark Gottesman

New User
Mark
Have you checked you belt to make sure it is not glazed, delaminated or has developed a set? Or even that it is the proper belt.?

Or maybe the arbor housing is a bit off spec and has worn to the point of causing the bearings or shaft to move.
 

kooshball

David
Corporate Member
I am on an iPad and will try to insert my comments in blue into your text where appropriate, so if it gets all messed up I apologize. Oh, and don't worry about all the questions, I really appreciate all the help!

A few more questions to better understand what you are describing...

Very important: When you describe the rocking behavior, is this test being performed with the bare motor shaft, or with the pulley attached? With or without the belt attached? If it is with the pulley attached the issue may be related to the pulley, but not in the way you are thinking -- and it may not even involve the bearing, this is why I ask.

-this is with the with the arbor shaft, bearings and pulley but no belts installed

Are the bearings shielded or unshielded (i.e. do they include a dust shield)?

-the OEM bearings and replacements all had rubber shields

Do you ever use the saw to cut any material other than wood?
-not other than raising the blade into my melamine zero clearance insert from Leecraft.

What is the environment your saw resides in, is there any opportunity for sand or grit to get into the saw (including wind-blown sand if you have sandy soil and an open garage door)?
-not really. It is in the garage but stays closed 99% of the time and I am in surrounded by turf and landscaping so no real sand / grit source.

Have you checked the motor's *rear* bearing as well? Any play in this bearing will show up at the other end of the motor.
-no, the motor seems fine and is dead silent and smooth when running without belts.

Are the bearings tight to the shaft (did you have to heat them to install?) and are they tight in the motor housing. It is important that there be no free play for the shaft to vibrate within the bearing, or for the bearing to vibrate within the motor housing.
-yes they are tight without any detectable play but no, I did not have to heat treat them to install.

When the bearings were heated, were you careful to insure they did not get too hot (you don't want to loose the grease or, at the extreme, soften the steel)?

I ask because it is very odd to have just one spot in the bearing that behaves this way, it would require a good deal of significant repetitive shock at precisely the same point in the rotation to distort a (good quality) hardened bearing like this to the point that you could actually *see* the deflection. Especially since the pulley is not the largest mass acting on the bearings -- the largest mass by far is that of the rotor -- and the impact of balance on the bearing is also a function of the offset of that imbalance from the center point of rotation (e.g. a given error in balance is amplified the further outward you move from the center) and a 3" pulley is not that great of a diameter -- it is probably even a smaller diameter than that of your rotor, so the pulley imbalance would have to be considerable.
-sorry to ask but what do you refer to as the rotor, on my arbor shaft the pulley is definitely the largest diameter object (aside from a blade when installed) which is why I have "targeted" the pulley as the likely suspect?

Sorry for so many questions, hopefully we can figure out what is going on.

Again, thanks for all the time and thought on this.
 

ehpoole

Administrator
Ethan
First off, the rotor is the rotating 'core' of the motor:

A Typical Single-Phase Induction Motor

electric_motor.jpg

Credit to www.daviddarling.info/encyclopedia/E/electric_motor.html for this image.

As you can see, it is a rather substantial mass, usually consisting of iron (though other metals can also be used), that pretty well dwarfs the mass of your pulley. In fact, the rotor typically represents the bulk of the motor's weight (not that the stator or chassis is especially lightweight) -- it's considerable mass is the reason your power tool takes so long to spin down after switching it off! The outer stator windings induce a rotating magnetic field through the rotor, which both simultaneously pulls and pushes the rotor in the direction of rotation at a speed that is (more or less) phase-locked to the frequency of the incoming AC power. Which is to say, the rotational speed of an Induction motor is determined by the frequency of the incoming power and not the voltage (as would be the case with a universal motor). In actuality, it will always spin a little slower than ideal due to a phenomena known as "rotor slip".

I'm a bit concerned that you were able to install and remove the bearings without heat as that means the fit is not especially tight, which offers some possibilities that the shaft and the cup the bearing rests in could possibly allow for some vibration over time (it will all depend upon what sort of forces are in play). Typically you would need to heat the bearing -- or cool the shaft -- in order to install the bearing on the motor's shaft. You would then use a mallet (not a hammer) or a hydraulic press to press the bearing into it's 'cup' in the motor's chassis, taking care to do so only by the outside race and ensuring no force whatsoever is applied to the motor shaft and/or inside bearing race.

However, I suspect that what you are interpreting as arbor/bearing play is really *pulley* play. If a pulley does not fit *tightly* over a motor's shaft (e.g. the pulley's bore is a bit oversized or the shaft a bit undersized) then the pulley can literally rock with every revolution, with the setscrew usually serving as the pivot point about which the pulley will rock.

What is likely happening is that, after your servicing, your pulley setscrew has been very well tightened. However, over time, due to the free-play between the two, the setscrew either loosens a tiny bit or the end of the setscrew begins to round over, making it easier to pivot about.

What you will hear is a knock-knock knock-knock (ad infinitum) as the motor spins. Not only is there often an audible knock-knock sound, but that knocking also causes vibration throughout the motor and belt assembly, which then transfers into the rest of the saw. It will not be especially noticeable (unless really bad) when the belt is removed, but will be quite noticeable with the belt installed (due to the lateral load the belt places on the assembly).

If you did not need a pulley/gear puller to remove the pulley... and a mallet (and some persuasion) to install it, then there is a very good chance you have found the cause of your problem. It could also, eventually, lead to bearing failure, but good bearings would take quite some time to be detectably affected by this (usually).

You might be able to shim the pulley to address the issue. Keeping it tight to the motor shaft is more important that whether it is perfectly centered. However, the best solution is a snug-fitting replacement pulley.

I would hold off on replacing the bearing until you have a new snug-fitting pulley so that you can see if that does not fix your problem. You may well discover that your existing bearings are just fine.

HTH
 

kooshball

David
Corporate Member
Again Ethan, thanks for the thought and comment on this thread.

Just a few final comments before my parts arrive and get installed...

To be clear, I have not touched the motor or its bearings, it is running smooth...the only thing I have dealt with is the full arbor assembly (arbor, bearings, spacers, arbor pulley, set screws and nylon embedded end nut).

No combination of OEM / replacement pulley and arbor results in the need for a press to install it, it slides in easily, the bearings are snug but can pushed in by hand if care is taken. That said, your description of the arbor pulley being a bit loose and resulting in a wobble could make sense and could describe the sounds of the recent incident.

Hopefully the new pulley will be snug. I will post results this weekend.

Thx
 

ehpoole

Administrator
Ethan
Thank you for the arbor/motor correction.

From your description, it really sounds like your arbor has been machined undersized.

You should not be able to *easily* slide your bearings and pulleys on/off the arbor (especially the bearings). If you think about it, anytime you can easily slide one over the other you, by definition, have a gap between the two. In this case, it would be expected to show up as runout at your arbor. However, it would still take quite some time to noticeably damage the bearings.

But, all that slop combined with a loose (non-interference) pulley does set you up for all sorts of free play that can show up as both vibration and runout.
 
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