1st commisioned job; How much charge $$$?

[Travis]

Great news. I just landed my first commissioned project for builtin lockers like I did for my home a month ago except with an additonal bench seat that will double as storage bin. I am amazed that I now have a hobby that pays and flattered that someone thinks enough of my work to pay for it. Best of all, I will have more income to "feed the tool addiction".:rolf:

After reveiwing the elevations and the price of the lockers the client now wants me to provide a price for built-ins under their stairs, along with cubbies and shoe racks in a large walk in closet. I am thrilled at the prospect of more business and additional tools but what do I charge? I don't want to charge too much for novice craftsmanship but I want to be fair to myself as well.

The project is very similiar to the lockers that I built recently for my home shown below. I thought that I could get some ideas have how you guys go about calculating prices or you give an appraisal on the units below I could extrapolate to the new projects.

Thanks for the advice.

 

[christopheralan]

I have struggled with the same problems for years. There are a few way to figure it out:

1. Charge by the hour. Figure out how many hours it will take and how much money you want to bring in. I wouldn't count materials in the hours, just how many it will take.

2. Charge double the cost of materials. If it will cost you $200 in materials, double that and get $400.

3. Call around to different companys who build custom units. Be a "mistery shopper" and get a over the phone price quote. Stay away from box stores to figure the price. They are all "pre-built" and not custom, and won't give you a fair price.

Remember, and I struggle with this too, pay yourself. If some one wants to pay you to do a job, they have confidence in you and your abbility as a craftsman to do custom work. Let your price reflect. Do alot of research on how to price, but also keep it simple. Word of mouth can spread quickly and you want to be known as a fair craftsman.

Congrats and good luck!

 

[rhett]

I have found Dan Ramsey's book The Woodworkers Guide to Pricing your Work to be an invaluable resource for understanding how to set a fair price for my work. I believe the simplest solution is to figure your personal shop rate per hour. This would include electric, overhead if any, what you want to make per hour etc. Then add that to materials. I have found that a 15% increase on materials covers the cost to round them up. You have to include your time and gas to get them you know. Congrats, I'm sure your new client will be happly to have such a nice built in, and you will like the extra $$$ for Christmas.

 

[McRabbet]

I do a detailed takeoff on materials and add 10% additional material to cover waste. If there are items that the client must choose (knobs, handles, glass style, etc), I put in a plug number and let them choose with the knowledge that you'll add the difference to the hardware cost. Don't forget fasteners, glue, finishing materials, etc. Add any special tooling items required to perform the work as a material cost (e.g., edge banding bits for plywood/hardwood edge banding). Be sure to add sales tax you pay. I then markup materials by 20%. Next, I do a labor estimate based on components and assemblies, dividing each into layout, milling, assembly and finishing. Take the total hours and multiply by your expected hourly rate. Add 10% for profit and total for your estimate.

HTH - my $.02

Rob

 

[cskipper]

Congrats on the job! It's a really great feeling knowing that someone thinks you do good enough work to pay for it! I'm still trying to figure out charging, and I have nothing to the scope of your project.

 

[Robert Arrowood]

HI Travis,got no clue how to figure the price for my work eather.I've had people get me to build for them in the past.Man it's a thrill just to have someone think enough of your work to ask.I'm by no means a pro like some of you guy's.Everything I've built I've used leftovers.I was lucky enough to get to clean out an old cabinet shop.And all they did was high end work so I pickedup some nice stuff.Enough about me for now.Congrats on your job! Just remember you do this because you love it don't let it get to you go with the flow.Robert

 

[woodguy1975]

Travis,

Pricing you work is a pretty tough thing. Most folks way underprice their work because they want the job. You've got to have the idea that it is ok to loose the job based on the quote. In the end the right price is what a customer is willing to pay. I've been a victim of underpricing my work, but I have gotten a higher price than I should have by the work before too.

Read Rob's reply and follow his suggestions. That is what I typically do for a built in cabinet style job. Just don't forget to make a profit for your "company" beyond your hourly rate. Most guys leave that part out, but shouldn't. I also had an adder if I knew the customer was going to be tough to deal with to make it worth my time to do the work.

Good Luck,

John

 

[DaveD]

Well I have found that most (80%?) people that want me to make them something think I can compete with the likes of Pottery Barn, Target, Wal Mart, and every other store that buys/sells junk from overseas. They are also thinking $8/hour. So I try to only deal with the other 20%.

The 'custom' part is worth money. Otherwise they could stack a bunch of 30" POS units from WalMart and build it themselves.

I'd do it all time and material and give them a real gross range on what the cost MIGHT be. Like for the cabinet you made for yourself, with 30 seconds of thought I'd tell you probably:
250$ in material
$75 in paint, primer.
3 days to measure it up, go buy material, build it (to some level) and cart it to your house and install/finish construction of it.
Then add one day to prime it and finish with topcoat.

Don't forget it takes time to clean up the shop when done.

So we have $325 in paint/material and about 4 days of build, chase material, paint, etc..
At $25/hour (and that is real dirt cheap even for a hobbiest). its going to cost you $1125 plus/minus probably $100. Give me $500 in advance and I'll have it done in probably 2 weeks (since I do this stuff part time) and 3 weeks max. I wouldn't feel bad at all if you told me you had to think about it and then decided you didn't want me to do it. That also gives me an opportunity to re think the job and see if I really want to do it and if my price guess was reasonable.

I just had an offer from a lady to do some work for her and we were really clicking along discussing what/when/price/etc. when her husband came in from the garage and got involved in the conversation. Two minutes later I knew I wouldn't do any work for that couple no matter how much they paid me. The point here is to be sure and talk to 'the significant other'.

One last point, if anyone wants a contract then I suggest that you 'run off and hide'. Its just not worth it unless you are a professional and make your living this way. Then you are also making $75/hour.

Oh yeah, I HATE to paint so I'd really try to talk you into doing that part yourself (you can save $275)

 

[Travis]

Thanks for the candid advice Dave. That was a really good guess on the materials but it took me a at least double the time to build it but it was a pleasure every minute except for painting. (Drove me to a HVLP unit which now makes that part fun) I know what you mean by walking away from business. I have been in sales marketing for a long time and sometimes it is just not worth the hassel dealing with crack pots. Better to walk away and turn over another rock to find reasonable expectations.

 

[Robert Arrowood]

Your right John.I'm bad about under pricing. Here lately I've been makeing walking sticks.And basicly gave a few of them away. The sticks are kind of hard to price because you can't just go out and buy your stock you've got to go out in the woods and look for it.When someone ask what my price's are I tell theme it depends on the stick and how much work go's into stripping it. For the last 5 years or so I've wanted to have my own company but for now I just do what I've got to do right.;-) Thanks,Robert

 

[Travis Porter]

Personally, I quit doing commisssions/side jobs long ago. For me, it is no longer fun when it is a job. I will help anyone build anything, but it was stressful to me doing it this way and woodworking is my stress relief not my second job.

To your costs, lots of good advice so far. I will add that I always underpriced what I should have charged. For example, I build some cabinets for where I worked one time and was going to charge $400 for them. When I was done, they told me I was nuts and paid me $1200 for them. A good rule of thumb that I have seen and I would think works for your charges on top of the material costs is to go somewhere between double and triple preferably triple.

Congratulations and good luck on the commission.

 

[dancam]

Another quick pricing formula that some cabinet makers advised me to use when I was contemplating doing some commission work was to do a detailed job of estimating the materials needed (include all the items, screws, glue etc) and then take 2 and half to three times and add this to the material cost and quote to the customer as an estimate.

I never did get into commission work because, like previously mentioned, working wood was for stress relief and fun.

Good luck.

Dan C.

 

[McRabbet]

Personally, I quit doing commissions/side jobs long ago. For me, it is no longer fun when it is a job. I will help anyone build anything, but it was stressful to me doing it this way and woodworking is my stress relief not my second job.

To your costs, lots of good advice so far. I will add that I always underpriced what I should have charged. For example, I build some cabinets for where I worked one time and was going to charge $400 for them. When I was done, they told me I was nuts and paid me $1200 for them. A good rule of thumb that I have seen and I would think works for your charges on top of the material costs is to go somewhere between double and triple preferably triple.

Congratulations and good luck on the commission.

Travis -- I do it because I make it low stress -- I don't compromise quality and won't work on a rush schedule. I also will not undercut the design if the client balks during negotiations; I'll take my CAD drawings and cost estimate and leave (they have paid nothing, so they don't get my design). I undercharged on my 1st project, but never again. In each case, my client and I sign two copies of a simple agreement contract with the price clearly agreed. I collect about 1/3 down (to cover material costs and contingencies) at signing and collect the balance on completion. My last client forced me to take 1/2 of what she owed at the end of the contract 3 weeks in advance because she was concerned that I didn't have anything in my pocket for all the work I'd done. I just finished a 9 x 12 deck with steps to an intermediate landing plus three more to the deck and a screen door onto an adjacent porch (85 hours of labor and $1,600 in materials) for $4,600. The wine cellar project was in the same ballpark.

Rob

 

[DaveD]

Another way to get paid that sounds good to me (I have never tried it) is to get something like 50% down to start, then another 25% when you move the cabinet pieces to the client's house and the last 25% when you finish the installation.

Chances are that most of us will never run into a bad client if we only do occasional work but the more you do the more you have a chance to run into a real snake in the grass.

I NEVER buy material with my money though.

 

[Travis Porter]

I guess that is my issue, I have a hard time making it low stress. Thinking back, my issues have been caused mostly by my full time job that pays the bills. Being that I travel a fair amount, it makes it tough at times to finish a project.

I do remember one time though that I took on a kitchen cabinet and bathroom vanity job for a builder that was building a house right across the street from me. I had gotten I think 75 or 80 percent of the money, and he pretty much disappeared, didn't finish the house and so on. So, since he wouldn't call me back or pay me since I was finished, I retrieved every cabinet door from the house.

Turns out he was being closed in on by the bank for not paying his bills. The people that were going to buy the house came by to see me and they said that when they went through the house the second time (after I had removed the doors), that they thought to themselves the cabinet guy is going to get his money for sure. I talked with them, and agreed to reinstall the doors (since they were going to be my neighbors anyway) and they told me they would make sure the builder paid me. Week goes by, here comes the builder with a check in his hand and a document for me to sign to show I had been paid in full.

That was the last commission I took. It wasn't because of that, but it had gotten to the point that my time became worth a whole lot more to me. I turned down a very large kitchen cabinet job that I could have easily tripled my money on because of time. I did talk with the people some on what to do and what not to do, but I just didn't have the time to do it.

Now having two young kids, it makes my time even more important, but to your point, if you can make sure you have your ducks in a row, you can make it low stress. The contract thing is a good idea IMO. I used to do that some, and it keeps everyone on the same page. It doesn't have to be fancy, just a basic who is doing what and who is providing what and what does it cost.

 

[DaveD]

Just a FYI for others thinking of removing something already installed.

I believe that once something is installed you cannot remove it from the premises if you don't get paid. I would have probably done the same thing though. At least the builder paid up though.

 

[Travis Porter]

Probably true, but I had an out. He had said the doors were rough, so of course I had to remove them to take them back to the shop to smooth and recoat them. I just never took them back.