Working with stain...

[pslamp32]

Did a small project last week using some stain (oil based). What is the best way to finish over stain without lifting the stain while brushing? I used dewaxed shellac under the stain. Should I have used shellac on top of the stain before topcoating? Also, should I use the sealer shellac or regular shellac? Kinda confusing to me. I kinda figured If I used oil based stain maybe a non oil based topcoat would keep the stain from lifting, or vice versa. Am I off base here? The brush on lacquer I used totally screwed up the stain coat.
Thanks! Peter

 

[DaveO]

Wow, lot's of question in one breath :lol: :lol: If you are going to use a shellac sealer coat to help even out the stain absorption, then you want to use a very light cut 1/2# or so, not straight out of the can (assuming your not mixing your own). Also you want to use the Zinsser Sealcoat shellac as it is de-waxed. Waxed shellac isn't friendly with oil finishes. If you've applied the stain and completely wiped off the excess and let it dry you shouldn't have any issues with the top coat picking up the stain color. Another sealer coat of shellac wouldn't hurt either...you really can't go wrong with shellac. I like to not mingle my finishes. If I'm using an oil based finish I will top coat with it. But I don't think that there is anything wrong with using a WB finish over an oil finish, as long as the oil based is fully cured.

 

[pslamp32]

So you put a coat of Zinser's dewaxed before and after the stain?

This is what I use. Thanks!

 

[DaveO]

A spit coat of Shellac can help with woods that are prone to blotching due to uneven absorption of the stain i.e. Maple, Poplar, etc. You don't need to use it for every wood. Shellac is the universal sealant, it can be applied between just about every finish if it is de-waxed like the Zinssers you show. Or if you de-wax your own brew from flakes. But you still need to allow your stain to completely cure and keep wiping off the excess until it no longer leaves color on a clean rag
Also it is helpful to lightly sand any seal coat application of the shellac.
Dave

 

[pslamp32]

Thanks Dave. I believe my impatience may have gotten the best of me. The weather was a bit cooler last weekend and i think I tried to brush on the lacquer before the stain was completely dry. Thanks!

 

[DaveO]

I believe my impatience may have gotten the best of me.

BTDT, and got a few t-shirts (some that don't even fit me any more) :BangHead: :BangHead:

Dave

 

[jeff...]

I'm not saying a word :-D

 

[Bryan S]

Cant offer much advice on this subject but I have gotten the distinct impression that Jeff is not fond of staining wood

I have seen alot of comments about using shellac between oil based stains and finishes

 

[Travis Porter]

I have let stain (minwax) dry a week in the darker colors, red mahogany for example, and still have had it lift up. The workable solution I have found is to use a coat of shellac.

BTW, it is a fact Jeff does not like staining wood. The more I do, the less I like staining it myself.

 

[pslamp32]

Does the cut of shellac matter? I know the sealer (under) coat is very thin and diluted. How about the coat over the stain? Thanks!

 

[cskipper]

I think Jeff is resisting the urge to question Dave about the color of those shjirts, specifically peach ones.

 

[pslamp32]

BTW, it is a fact Jeff does not like staining wood. The more I do, the less I like staining it myself.

Sometimes it's necessary. My last project, which this question refers to, required me to try and match colors of a set of doors I built. The old cabinets had been stained over seven years ago. I tried to match colors and add some 'distress' to the doors to make them coexist. I couldn't really just stick some popler and ply doors up with natural finish. Wouldn't work in this instance. Flexner says, "...used properly, though, stains beautify wood, and they solve problems rather than create them...". I'm still at the 'used properly' part....
:lol:

 

[DaveO]

Does the cut of shellac matter? I know the sealer (under) coat is very thin and diluted. How about the coat over the stain? Thanks!

The cut of the shellac coat over the stain doesn't really matter as much as one under it, but a 2# cut will be easier to apply than a 3# cut. It's very much like thinning poly to make it a wiping varnish, it will self-level better and start to get tacky slower. Plus if you are just using it as a barrier coat, cutting the shellac will make it go farther, you really don't need a heavy coat as a barrier.
MTCW,
Dave

 

[Alan in Little Washington]

A friend up in Richmond just finished a museum quality Cherry secretary which I had the chance to see in person. This guy is a real craftsman. The pics taken during finishing are gone but I copied his schedule from the post. It is a multi-step process but yielded unbelievable results:

1. sanded to 180 grit, the last sanding by hand.
2. sprayed wet coat of non-grain raising alcohol based "Mohawk ultra penetrating stain" reduced 3:1. the color was "cherry"
3. sprayed a washcoat of M L Campbell vinyl sealer reduced 4:1
4. scuff sanded with 240 grit when dry
5. sprayed on and wiped off M L Campbell "Burnt Umber" glaze. It is a dark glazing stain with a slight reddish tint. It really evens out the color and "pops" the grain.
6. sprayed a sealer coat of Campbell vinyl straight up
7. Scuff sand again with 320
8. Finished with 2 coats 40 sheen lacquer

Check out the results:

By the way, those glass door muntins are all hand fitted and each door has 13 panes of glass.

 

[Gofor]

I'm with Jeff: My wife rales at me 'bout stains, too: ""That WAS a good shirt!", "Does oil jump on you when you wear something nice?". I asked her, but she didn't have any ideas I can repeat here about intentional applying them, other than if it is something expensive, they will never come out:rolf:

Go

 

[Travis Porter]

Alan, that is nothing but awesome. I would hate to think how long it took him just to do the finishing.

 

[jeff...]

My personal opinion only I could actually see reducing Mohawk alcohol based penetrating stain 4:1. And I truly think that was a pretty smart idea. Why do I say this when ya'll know I am so dead set against staining wood? my thoughts are alcohol based anything will dry quick (very quick) and by reducing it 4:1 what your really doing is creating a quick drying pigmented dye. You could actually do the something by mixing up powdered pigments in DNA to create the background color you desire.

Personally I don't stain wood (at all) but I will rarely use dye from time to time, mainly to adjust the sapwood to the heart wood and maybe blend a board that was to light to it's surrounding boards, so it's selective dying... I don't ever recall taking dye or stain to an entire piece of furniture, I think if I did the old guy that first taught me finishing and repair would have taken me out back and beaten me with a big stick. I'm dead serious about the beating part.

Remember this is MY personal opinion only. Whatever works best for you is good for you. Out of respect for my first teacher, I simply don't stain wood.