Underhill vs. Abrams

[ErnieM]

In a recent thread concerning Norm Abrams, Stan wrote:

It was a bit unsettling to see how he would use all the power tools to produce something that originally came from an all handtool shop,

The more I thought about this interesting statement the more questions popped into my head.

1. If craftsmen/women living 200 years ago had access to power tools, would they have used them?

2. If Roy Underhill reproduced (using only hand tools) the work of a 21st century craftsman, like Norm, who used mainly power tools and modern conveniences like dovetail jigs, should that also be unsettling?

3. Are hand tools[FONT=&quot] intrinsically superior to power tools?

Like many of you, I watch both Norm and Roy usually every week. I admire the skills that both bring to the table (no pun intended:rotflm . I'd love to have half the ability of either of them. That said, I must admit to having a bias in favor of Norm. Watching Roy just plain makes me nervous. His workplace (at least on the tv show) is a total disaster area - an accident waiting to happen. With all those razor sharp tools hidden under mountains of debris and sawdust, I'm amazed he still has all of his parts (again, no pun intended). I wonder if I would feel this way if I were more into using hand tools. :dontknow:

My guess is that most woodworkers use a combination of hand and power tools. I think that would have been the case in the 18th century as well - if they had the choice.

What do you think?

Ernie


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[G_ville_worker]

I've thought about the same thing. I feel most people use a combination. I think when you get into one camp is better than the other some folks are being closed minded. I think it is smart to use what ever tool works the best for the job, or what you prefer using. I think if their were power tools back in the day they would have been used. Remember, some of those hand tools were cutting edge technology when they were invented. Did those craftsmen back then say "I'm not using that new sharp steel chisel, I'm going to use a sharp rock instead." :mrgreen:

I think the more you get into something the more you may have an appreciation and then interest in original ways to do things. A lot of times going back to those hand tools and understanding how and why they work gives insight into better using, and the intention of modern power tools.

I've seen this same discussions on different things as well. Evolution is going to happen. I love talking to the uber linux computer guys who do everything from a black screen and command prompt on a computer and despise a graphical interface like on a mac or windows. Sometimes evolution is good. I like to click My Documents, look at the file I need and click it to open instead of typing in a string of commands to change directories and open or launch a program or file.

I love to watch both Norm and Roy. If you look closely Roy usually is bleeding or has a bandage though. :gar-La;

 

[CarvedTones]

Underhill versus Abrams? It wouldn't even go two rounds; Roy could take him.

My preference for hand tools when practical is largely about noise, dust and economy but there is also something really appealing to me about old tools. This is a hobby and it's as much about doing the work as being done.

There is another element - safety. Even though I agree with your observation about Roy and his band aids, I think hand tools are generally less likely to do serious damage. If Nawm ever gets hurt with his equipment, he will likely end up in the ER. OTOH, my Japanese saw sent me to the ER for stitches.

The other thing I think about it in this regard is tool quality. Take the ubiquitous plastic base, aluminum top, ~$100 table saws with the blender motors (I have one; not trying to insult others) for example - do you think the old master crafstmen would have used one if they had the chance? I think they would. Would they prefer a higher end model? Absolutely. But much like the power/neander debate, you will find a lot of high end tools users who consider all cheap tools to be useless garbage. You find the same thing in the neander world - the wood doesn't know what label is on the handle of your chisel.

 

[mlzettl]

I've also thought about this subject. When does something become "hand made?" I seriously doubt that many woodworkers, if any, design a project, then build it from a tree they cut down in the woods with an axe, cut into boards with a pit saw, dimensioned with hand planes, etc., etc. When I started woodworking, the only power tools that I had were a drill and router. I sawed the rough stock with a hand saw, jointed and thicknessed the stock with hand planes, and cut all the joints by hand. I would like to say that I did it this way out of some altruistic desire to honor the craft, but the fact of the matter is I didn't have the money or the space to have a bunch of power tools. As that situation changed over the years, I used more power tools and did less hand work. It was an evolution necessitated primarily by time.

Some things are done better by hand in my opinion. When one looks at a piece of furniture, hand done details are what often set apart a piece that is exceptional from one that is mundane. These days, if I can accomplish something by machine, I do. But, if hand work is demanded to achieve a certain look or function, I have no hesitation in doing that. Most of my work involves a lot of hand tools. Scrapers, planes, dovetail saws, etc. certainly lend a mark of pride in craftsmanship. When someone asks me if my furniture is "hand made" I tell them the truth, that I use hand and power tools. Let them decide where the cutoff is.

I don't think that any one way is better than the other. Is a hand cut dovetail "better" than one that is machined? The question has no black and white answer. Whatever works best for that woodworker in that situation is better. We all develop our own way of doing things. If we're happy with our final product and the means we used to produce it, then we have achieved our goals.

I will say that for me learning to do everything by hand has had the advantage of giving me a better appreciation for proper joinery and technique. It also gives me that latitude to be more efficient. If I have two half lap dovetails to make, I can do those faster by hand than by setting up to do them by machine. If I have to make ten or twenty, I'll machine them.

With regard to the original Norm vs. Roy question, I don't think that one is better than the other. They are different. I have to say that I cringe when ever I see Norm pull out the pneumatic nailer. I also cringe when I see Roy diving into a pile of hand tools and using whatever he can find to do a job, even if it isn't the best choice. I think we would have to resuscitate Ernie if we brought him into Roy's shop!!

As a disclaimer, I will say that I own and use tools that range from 18th century hand tools to a CNC machine. I will use whatever seems most appropriate for the job.

Fire away!!

Matt

 

[Matt Schnurbusch]

Hand vs. power seems to be one of "those" topics.

I use almost exclusively power tools. For right now it works for me. I do have this thing nagging me in the back of my head making me want to use more hand tools. The thing is, I haven't even begun to master the tools that I have. Let alone the idea of starting in a whole new genre.

Folks that primarily use power tools create some incredible work.
Folks that primarily use hand-tools also create some incredible work.

The difference to me is that when I look at both pieces of work the one made with hand tools instantly becomes something more. Anyone can work with power tools (I'm proof of that:gar-La, but there is a level of artistry to using hand tools. Now, before anyone flips out...

I really do think that anyone with a little bit of safety training, just a few minutes, can make a nice straight cut on a properly tuned table saw.

I do not think that just anyone could pick up a properly tuned and sharpened hand saw and produce a cut of similar quality. Then throw in the hand plane needed to flatten and smooth that cut and you might as well give it up.

I could be completely off my rocker. The only hand plane I have ever tried to use was about as sharp as a flathead screwdriver. Suffice it to say that using the tool was difficult. It could be that using hand planes and other hand tools is every bit as easy as using power tools, I just have a hard time believing that.

As for the Norm vs. Roy conversation... Both are incredibly talented. I think it's an apples and oranges comparison though. NYW is set up more as a production type workshop. The projects that are chosen lend themselves more to a production shop. The stuff I've seen Roy build seems to be more in the "one-off" category.

Norm is all business on his show. Roy likes to portray a quirky fellow. Roy often tries to impart some humor into his show. Most of the time it fails, at least for me.

In short I am envious of the skills of both craftsmen. I am equally envious of the tool collections of both. But trying to compare them does them both a disservice.

 

[jerrye]

It seems to me that there are two questions here: Which is better, hand or power tools; and would 18th century craftsmen have use power tools if they were available?

To the first question: already been answered sufficiently, I think. Use what you prefer to be the best tools for the situation. There is no one way or tool better or worse.

To the second question: 18th century craftsmen were not woodworking as a hobby; they were doing it for a living, or to build something for their own use.

If for a living, they would use whatever made them able to turn out more work at the quality level they needed. If they'd had access to tools that would allow them to cut dovetails in seconds instead of minutes; allow them to plane wood in minutes instead of hours; they would have done it. Just as someone would today. Yes, there would be exceptions, but I don't think there would be many. Today, how many people that make period moldings for restoration, hand cut them with planes from the original period? Not many, I'd say.

If making something for themselves, they would not have the urgency of satisfying a client, so time might be less important...though time spent on furniture would be less time to spend on the farm, or in the shop, or in the barn, so it might be justifiable to invest in power tools.

We've heard from Ernie. I think it'd be interesting to hear from others on this board that also make their living working wood.

I still think we're really discussing two different classes of woodworkers: those who make a living/make what they need (18th C) and hobbyists (most WW today).

MTCW.:gar-Bi

GREAT discussion though!

 

[Mike Davis]

For me it is not a question of hand tool vs. power tool, I use both.

When I see Norm Abrams go and study a piece of furniture and discuss how well it is designed and built, about how it has withstood the test of time for 100s of years and then say something like "we are not going to build it that way" then make a mockery of the construction and design it just makes me sick.

I don't care about the tools, I don't care about the tool belt, I don't care about the shop, I don't even care that he throws "Yankee" in my face.

I do get very upset that hundreds of years of the science of wood and art of design are thrown out the window and turned into department store trash in thirty minutes and people all over the world think that is OK because it is on TV.

The quality of craftsmanship has steadily declined due to people like him, Cheap imports flood the market to the point that there are no quality products in the stores. All in the name of lower prices and faster production.

 

[mlzettl]

Jerry, I think you've hit the nail on the head. There is a HUGE difference in woodworking for a living vs. a hobby. There are only a relatively small number of craftsmen throughout the country who can produce work that involves a large amount of hand work and command the price that allows them to make a living at it. It is a difficult niche to break into, as the client market is similarly small.

Matt

 

[dtomasch]

I've gotta go with evolution. I agree that hobby ww'ers have the luxury of time. As a guy that squeeks out a living on creating things from wood, I would not be able to live w/o power. The profit margin on building furniture is so tight that every ounce of profit (and I mean Ounce) would be out the window using hand tools. I am relatively young, although I learned most of my basics on hand tools. I am now thinking about the next step in the tool evolution. What about power tools vs. computer tools (c & c). I feel that the things that I build by "hand" with power tools are far superior to things built by computer....why? Because of the subtle imperfections that make each piece unique. The C & C is so precise that you can reproduce a piece over and over again and get exact results again and again. I wonder what the next step in tool "evolution" might be. As far as Norm vs Roy......Norm.

 

[Tarhead]

Amen Jerry on the need and hobby comment! Here's Ed Nelson presenting St. Roy with a few extra boxes of bandaids at the MWTCA meeting at Ed Hobbs' this past July.:rotflm:

I heard or read something about the frantic nature of Roy's shows and something I never noticed was mentioned. He typicaly only uses one camera and no re-takes or pauses. No one rearranges the set and prepares for the next shot. It's all done in one take, beeding and stumbling included. That's why he normally loses track of tools and workpieces. His studio/workshop is tiny and I'm amazed it has all worked for 29 years.

Look at their backgrounds:
Roy has a Theater degree from UNC and an Master's in Forestry from Duke. (What was he thinking?)
Norm is a Mechanical Engineer who had a contracting business and was in the right place when a PBS TV producer needed a renovation at his house.

Roy's a re-enactor, Norm's an Engineer. I love them both and will miss them when they retire.

 

[JimD]

I think the big question is whether you are doing the project to the best of your ability as quickly as you can or whether you value the experience as much as the end result so speed is not so much an issue. There are a few projects that can be done mainly by hand tools as quickly as power tools but only a few. For instance, I have an old FWW at home where a guy claims he can build kitchen chairs faster by hand due to the joints involved. They take me quite awhile with power tools so I am willing to believe him. I can do it with power tools, however, and I would mess some wood up before I got there with hand tools so I am using the power tools. Good hand tools are not all that cheap either. If I wanted to get serious with hand tools, I would need some better saws, for instance, and they seem to run around $100 each with several necessary if you are going to be serious about it.

My patience level is not high enough to spend all day on a series of joints cut by hand. Others would throughly enjoy that day. I need to see results quicker to stay motivated. I would not try and say one way is better than another, I just know what works for me.

I would also say that Norm has gotten better over the years. I have the book of his original projects and he did not understand wood movement or what a hand tool was at first. It would still be nice to see him use something other than a tape measure to get dimensions but he occasionally uses a hand tool these days and seems to understand wood movement. I am certainly closer to Norm than Roy but I occasionally watch Roy. He seems to throughly enjoy the process and the history. I just want to get to the end result the easiest/best way possible. That sometimes requires well tuned hand tools, however. I had zero success fine tuning tenons with power tools, for instance. A shoulder plane is not always required but when it is it is very nice to have. Sharp chisels even Norm had early. I now remove excess wood on the ends of tenons with a handsaw and chisel because it is safer and about as fast for me but Norm still uses his table saw. We all have to decide what works for us.

Jim

 

[Bigdog72]

I enjoy the time I get to spend in my shop. I enjoy using the tools that I own. I am a Normite and I'm proud of it. I am completely self taught and my pieces are and will be far from perfect. I don't have time to learn the intricacies of all the different types of planes nor do I have the time to use them. I do get pleasure from producing something with finely tuned power tools. It's my hobby and I refuse to be told how I should enjoy it. Several of you have indicated that Norm is responsible for the decline of modern civilization. I don't think so.

 

[Nativespec]

I like the way Roy's show is done in real time. I have lost some interest in Norm's show as my skill improved. I don't like using metal fasteners on my projects (Norm uses them often) but I do like using the Domino instead of the traditional mortise and tenon. The time I save can be used on finishing. I just did nine drawers with hand cut dovetails-it took some time, but I got better at it. I tend to use hand tools where it is appropriate. Sometimes a router can do some serious damage to a piece that has many hours in it. Hand tools are quiet and don't create as much dust. Power tools save quite a bit of time with planing, jointing and sawing.

Thanks,

David

 

[Travis Porter]

1. They would use them, and use them quick.

2. I have watched Roy build some complex pieces doing the hand tool thing. I won't say they are superior, but in many instances I believe Roy's joinery is superior. He definitively doesn't do as many nails.

3. You asked if they are intrinsically superior...... Yes, I would say hand tools are intrinsically superior to power tools. Hand tools are more flexible than power tools in my opinion because you have more flexibility to do more with them.

 

[PeteM]

For all you Roy fans out there . . .

(be sure to read the caption)

http://blogs.popularwoodworking.com/editorsblog/Roy+Underhill+Contemplates+The+Ax.aspx

pete

 

[Tar Heel]

Ernie, it seems as if you have started a thread that has resulted in some very stimulating responses. It is one of the better threads that I have seen during my years on this site. As has already been so ably discussed, I don't believe there is any one answer to your question as to which is best...hand or power tools. Although we will never be able to definitively answer the question of "would the 17th and 18th century (and also those before them) use power tools if they had been available", I think it is reasonable to assume that many would have used them. As has been alluded to previously, time is money and anything that can be used to turn out a quality product in less time would have appealed to many of the earlier entreprenuers.

Who's better, Roy or Norm is another unanswerable question. They both work with wood but do it in totally different ways. In life there are many things that can be done differently and achieve similiar results and this is one of them. I am really bothered by anyone who is so adamant in his/her opinions that they believe their way is the only way. We see that too much in religion, politics, and many other areas of our everyday life. BTW, I am not referring to anyone who has responded to this thread. I am a firm believer in the old adage "different strokes for different folks".

I just hope that we all to continue to enjoy this hobby in whatever way works best for us and not get caught up in a "my dog is bigger than your dog" conversation which, to me, is a complete waste of time.

 

[Mike Davis]

I would like to see a show that teaches real life, practical wood working.

Things the home owner can do in a garage shop without having to buy every tool Delta/Festool/Porter-Cable, et al makes.

A mix of machine and hand tools and an explanation why one is better suited to the job or more expedient than the other.

Solid joinery, good construction and well thought out design combined with production methods that do not take away from the value of the work.

Alternative methods to achieve the best results with the tools available.

You know as well as I that there are more than a dozen ways to do any particular task, some ways are easier, some are faster, some give better results, some are less laborious, some require more practice and skill. I believe in using the methods that offer the best compromise and fit the job at hand.

So, in some ways both Norm and Roy are wrong as well as both are sometimes right, but neither offer an unbiased, complete vision.

Roy is saying upfront that he is teaching the old ways and promoting the history of hand tools and hand work. He does that quite well.

I don't know what Norm's message is other than buy more tools and knock it out as fast as you can. I guess he does that very well.

 

[sediener]

I would like to see a show that teaches real life, practical wood working.

Things the home owner can do in a garage shop without having to buy every tool Delta/Festool/Porter-Cable, et al makes.

A mix of machine and hand tools and an explanation why one is better suited to the job or more expedient than the other.

I like the mix of power and hand tools that T-chisel uses
( http://www.tchisel.com/index.html ). He's a goofball and has some problems with language at times. He does have shows where he goes through 4-5 different ways of doing something using varying levels of equipment. You can pick up some really interesting techniques from his show.

- Steve

 

[MikeH]

This has been a great thread to follow. I find value in both and enjoy them in different ways. I enjoy Roy for his historical perspective on things and the use of some of the not so common tools. I do however get nervous when he's working quickly to get something done in one episode.

With Norm I enjoy watching the construction process on most of his projects. There is usually something I can take away from both and if I don't like something I can also leave it.

I'm always eager for a new or more efficient way of doing something.

 

[nelsone]

Interesting thread! I don't think they should be exclusive of each other.

If 18th century furniture makers had power tools, of course they would use them. What I have found throughout my learning curve is that certain tasks can be done quicker with hand tools. This is espeicially true of single piece construction! Power tools are great for a lot of actions and I would not want to go completely unpowered.

I do think many woodworkers (myself included) would have benefited from learning to use hand tools first, because you have to give more thought about how to understand and accomplish a task.