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Ah, the advantages of an efficient cyclone, set up in a push-through configuration, and a high dust alarm- I am never forced to do that. :gar-Bi :gar-Bi
It would be nice to have:
The room
The funds
The time to get that all done
But... thanks!!
eeeyyyuk! I know what you mean. I use a TC separator and it works well to keep the bags clean unless I forget to empty it [often] then its eeeyyuck city! I always planed to get a better setup but since the work went south havent been able to do anything shop.:wsad: I got some of those dust masks from HF that I use for this when I remember to put one on....:gar-Bi
Wow, First time in about a year, Lucky~!
I had emptied my Delta see thrugh bag about 4-5 times in the past year. Eeeyyuck as Fredp said.
I put it in a 55 gallon black trash bag, that leaves me with enough room to tie it off. Don't have woods or property to just dump it~!
I had emptied my Delta see thrugh bag about 4-5 times in the past year. Eeeyyuck as Fredp said.
I put it in a 55 gallon black trash bag, that leaves me with enough room to tie it off. Don't have woods or property to just dump it~!
I know it is a nasty pain to dump any kind of dust barrel, especially if it is filled to overflowing. I also know it is difficult to put a plastic trashcan liner in a separator bin so it doesn't get sucked up.
But for you experimenters using trashcan separators with or without baffle, have you tried reconfiguring your setup as a "push through"? That is putting the separator on the discharge side of the blower.
Let's not get hung up on the issue of "without the pre-separater stuff will hit and possibly damage the impeller." As I have been trying to tell folks on SMC, that is exactly how all single stage DC's have been designed, built, and used for 40-50 years! And no, I wouldn't do it with a DC that has a plastic impeller.
Anyway, back to the "push-through." If you put the separator on the discharge side of the blower (between the blower and filter, or better yet, between the blower and outside discharge), then the separator is under positive pressure. The separator shouldn't care if it is under pressure or under suction. Here is how a push-though is configured. In my case the separator is a cyclone, but that is irrelevant to this discussion.
Hose/pipe from tool(s) > DC Blower > separator > filter (or outside discharge)
Not only should a trash can liner work now, but if you can attach the bag directly to the lid of your separator, you don't even need the trash can itself! Also, as long as the bag is sealed tightly, the trash can does not need to be sealed if you decide to keep it.
One caveat- if you want to forgo the trash can, you can't have a filter that creates too much back pressure- it can cause the bag to split open. However, despite high back pressure caused by clogged filters (see first photo) on numerous occasions before I built and installed my high dust alarm, I never had a blown bag.
I have been using a cyclone in the push-through configuration for about 10 years and dumping the dust is a simple process and no big deal. I undo the bag (cheap grocery store 39 gal. plastic leaf and lawn trash bag) from the bottom of the cyclone, tie it off, and take it to the curb or put it in the dumpster. No mask, no cloud of dust, no spilling, etc.
My VA house push-through cyclone built in 2001 (a previous backup clogged the filter, hence the relatively taught chip bag):
My NC unit built in 2004:
But for you experimenters using trashcan separators with or without baffle, have you tried reconfiguring your setup as a "push through"? That is putting the separator on the discharge side of the blower.
Let's not get hung up on the issue of "without the pre-separater stuff will hit and possibly damage the impeller." As I have been trying to tell folks on SMC, that is exactly how all single stage DC's have been designed, built, and used for 40-50 years! And no, I wouldn't do it with a DC that has a plastic impeller.
Anyway, back to the "push-through." If you put the separator on the discharge side of the blower (between the blower and filter, or better yet, between the blower and outside discharge), then the separator is under positive pressure. The separator shouldn't care if it is under pressure or under suction. Here is how a push-though is configured. In my case the separator is a cyclone, but that is irrelevant to this discussion.
Hose/pipe from tool(s) > DC Blower > separator > filter (or outside discharge)
Not only should a trash can liner work now, but if you can attach the bag directly to the lid of your separator, you don't even need the trash can itself! Also, as long as the bag is sealed tightly, the trash can does not need to be sealed if you decide to keep it.
One caveat- if you want to forgo the trash can, you can't have a filter that creates too much back pressure- it can cause the bag to split open. However, despite high back pressure caused by clogged filters (see first photo) on numerous occasions before I built and installed my high dust alarm, I never had a blown bag.
I have been using a cyclone in the push-through configuration for about 10 years and dumping the dust is a simple process and no big deal. I undo the bag (cheap grocery store 39 gal. plastic leaf and lawn trash bag) from the bottom of the cyclone, tie it off, and take it to the curb or put it in the dumpster. No mask, no cloud of dust, no spilling, etc.
My VA house push-through cyclone built in 2001 (a previous backup clogged the filter, hence the relatively taught chip bag):
My NC unit built in 2004:
Alan, you've clearly got some great concepts and ideas, as well as implementation. Unfortunately, many folks are not as versatile as you are when it comes to design and fabrication.
Have you thought about putting together a blow through design using the inexpensive 2 hp Grizzly/HF type of system that many of our members use? Something is pretty much self contained and will work out in a tight "garage type" of woodworking environment?
One nice thinng about the Thein sepearators is that they are relatively easy to build, and will work out well with the "average" home woodworker system. It would really be great if you could develop a "Shafter System" that could offer an alternative for folks on a tight budget.
Just a thought....
Scott
Have you thought about putting together a blow through design using the inexpensive 2 hp Grizzly/HF type of system that many of our members use? Something is pretty much self contained and will work out in a tight "garage type" of woodworking environment?
One nice thinng about the Thein sepearators is that they are relatively easy to build, and will work out well with the "average" home woodworker system. It would really be great if you could develop a "Shafter System" that could offer an alternative for folks on a tight budget.
Just a thought....
Scott
Thanks. First, I think most of the folks on this forum, can easily configure a 2hp HF DC and Thein baffle as a push-through system- it is just re-arranging what they may already have. I am willing to answer any questions and guide folks through the process, but I don't have time to make a prototype myself.
But, I am way ahead of you in trying to make something as simple and inexpensive as possible. Unfortunately, like my other project (which is "Patent Pending", licensed to a manufacturer, and which will hopefully be on the market later this year:eusa_danc ) I can't provide any details. I am still working on a prototype, but if it works like I believe, and is as easy and inexpensive to manufacture as I hope (THE key ingredients to any potentially marketable invention), maybe you will eventually see it on the market as well. I know that is of no help to folks needing something now, but I don't want to follow in the footsteps of ClearVue and their problems with Oneida over the mini-cyclone.
Well, I let the genie out.....
I failed to mention in my initial post that I do have a Thein type separator (Thanks Mac!) inline with most of my machines but my table saw is on a separate line. Just the way it worked out and I am not inclined to set up another separator or redo what I have. The bag on my dust collector needs to be emptied once a year but the can for the separator gets emptied 3-4 times per month depending on what I am doing. It's not that big a deal, I just dislike the chore.
I failed to mention in my initial post that I do have a Thein type separator (Thanks Mac!) inline with most of my machines but my table saw is on a separate line. Just the way it worked out and I am not inclined to set up another separator or redo what I have. The bag on my dust collector needs to be emptied once a year but the can for the separator gets emptied 3-4 times per month depending on what I am doing. It's not that big a deal, I just dislike the chore.
Remember, if anything is getting through to your bags/filters, which you say it is, then immediately after you clean/empty them, they start getting clogged and CFM suction starts going down. It is just the nature of the beast. By the time you get around to emptying/and cleaning the bags, the CFM suction will have significantly degraded to a point where collection at each machine may be below what it should be. Also, if your bags are the ones typically provided by the manufacturer (30 micron), they will pass the fine (.5 - 10 micron) dangerous dust until the filter media is well caked and possibly after that as well. By moving the separator to the discharge side of the blower, before the filter (push-though configuration) and eliminating the filter altogether- discharging outside, at least during the months of moderate temps., your system will have and will maintain much higher suction and not return dust to the shop air through the filters. It is a win-win situation.
A poster on SMC who lives in a residential neighborhood with an adjacent house reports excellent results with this setup- HF DC, baffle separator, configured in a push-through with outside discharge and no bags. He claims it doesn't bother his neighbors, and leaves no chips, dust or wheat flour deposits on the grass. Plus, he has no nasty bags to empty and clean. I just thought you might want to know.
Alan, I'm still intrigued by this concept and think I'm finally grasping how it would be set it up. Unfortunately I'm pretty certain it's not possible, or at least not easily done without a ton of modifications, with the Jet DC650 I currently have since it doesn't have a discharge hose/pipe before the bags. :gar-Cr
I'll just have to settle for eventually setting it up the "sucky" way until I upgrade my DC.
Brian.
I'll just have to settle for eventually setting it up the "sucky" way until I upgrade my DC.
Brian.
I had to go to Amazon and WMH to look at the 650. If you have the pedestal configuration, it will be a bit more difficult than with a HF DC, but I believe it can be done. As I said "this is for experimenters."
One way which, I am certain is unacceptable, is to separate the blower housing from the filter bag ring- I don't think it unbolts so it would be a hacksaw mod :no: :thumbs_do
If I'm not mistaken, the filter ring on that unit generally forces the air to the bottom bag first before the air rises up into the upper bag/filter. That leaves a couple of add-on options that don't require permanently modifying the unit.
The simplest way is to add a Thein type baffle plate to the bottom of the filter ring to improve separation, put a plastic trash bag on the bottom, and either leave the upper filter in place, or better yet, put a ply blank-out on top with a 6" hose fitting so you can run pipe and discharge outside. SMC has a lot of guys who who have built baffle systems so you might want to search there to see if anyone has added a baffle directly to the filter ring of a unit like yours.
Another option is to remove the filter ring assembly from the equation. Put plywood blank-outs on the top and bottom. The bottom blank-out could then be configured as a trash can lid with baffle below it. Or you could add a fitting to the bottom blank-out and pipe the air/dust to a separate trashcan baffle separator that discharges into a filter or outside.
The goal is the same for each setup- improve separation so less dust reaches the filter or so the level of dust is acceptable for outside discharge.
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