Jointer frustration

[Bas]

I've tried three different methods (stick, magnetic jig, dial indicator), and I'm an expert at setting my jointer knives at the right height. I can get them to within .0005".

The problem is that as soon as I tighten the screws on the knife gib, one corner is raised a random amount, somewhere between .001 and .004. Of course, each knife goes in a different direction, and the results aren't pretty.

I've tried tightening the screws one at a time, very gently, the same amount. I've tried holding the knife in place with the magnetic jig and completely tightening the middle two screws. I've tightened one screw, adjusted the other end, gone back, tightened them one at a time....it doesn't make a difference. Still get a ragged cut.

What am I doing wrong? And do they make jointers with an idiot-proof knife setting system, like planers have? I've run the magnets and dial indicator over the knives so many times, they'll be blunt before I get them set up.

 

[Travis Porter]

.0005? I would be happy with .001 to .004. 1/128 of an inch is .007.

Patience is the key. DavidF came over and help me do mine in my DJ-20. I would say we spent a good 30 minutes on each blade going back and forth.

If you are using a dial indicator with a magnetic base that may be making it harder as well. David had a neat little base for his dial indicator that is similar to the Oneway gauge I got.

 

[Bas]

Well, the .0005 is after many, many, many hours of practice. I'd be happy too if I could get the three knives within .004 of each other. The problem is getting each knife STRAIGHT. The cut is really bad because sometimes the knife end closest to the fence is high, sometimes it's low. As soon as I tighten the screws, it's crooked. As a result, I get a lot of chatter and the boards develop a lovely taper.

It just seems odd that a routine operation like replacing the knives requires so much precision work. Can you imagine if it took you 30 minutes to replace the blade in your table saw? We wouldn't be complaining about the 3 minutes it took to replace the splitter, that's for sure.

 

[erasmussen]

Send it to me and I will work on it for you, I think I can get it right in about 4 or 5 years:eusa_danc:eusa_danc

 

[junquecol]

One thing that is often overlooked, is were the cutting edges straight? Did you check them against each other prior to starting the install? If the blade is crooked, no amount of work is going to correct that. Be sure and polish the jibs and the heads of the jib screws. A burr on the head of one screw can throw of all your hard work. Sometimes I can change a set in 30 minutes, and the next time it takes an hour. :icon_scra

 

[Dutchman]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2983839096587014177

Take a look at this video. Bob has helped me with some of my equipment. He lives in Roanoke and is an expert machinery repair person and a pretty neat guy.

 

[tom hintz]

I use a dil indicator to set jointer knives (Oneway MultiGauge) and found that snugging all of the gib screws down in progression helped keep the knives from walking out of alignment. Most of my straight knife jointers had jackscrews under the knives which makes it way easier to set anyway but the snugging thing helps.

 

[Nativespec]

Reducing my expectations has helped me. I don't expect finished results from a jointer or planer.

David

 

[NCPete]

Bas, it sounds like you need to get a shelix style head for your jointer. No more frustrating knife setting.... But, when it comes time to turn the cutters I am just about twisting my wrist off - and it does take some time.:BangHead: of course, they are carbide, so I can't clearly remember when the last time was:eusa_danc

 

[Larry Rose]

Reducing my expectations has helped me. I don't expect finished results from a jointer or planer.

David

I'm with David on the lowered expectations. Additionaly, I'll do almost anything short of buying a new jointer to keep from losing my religion trying to change blades. It's proably the worst job one has to do in the shop. I can get some more life from the blades by honing the in place with a gismo I bought a few years ago. Its Woodcraft item #123679.

 

[Bas]

Lots of great advice!

One thing that is often overlooked, is were the cutting edges straight? ... Sometimes I can change a set in 30 minutes, and the next time it takes an hour. :icon_scra

Yes, the knives are straight. I did check that, and I cleaned/ checked the gibs and screws. An hour - I'd be delighted with an hour

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2983839096587014177
Take a look at this video.

That's a great video - thanks! I had not considered removing the fence, that's not a bad idea. Certainly makes it easier to use either the jig or indicator that way.

I use a dial indicator to set jointer knives (Oneway MultiGauge) and found that snugging all of the gib screws down in progression helped keep the knives from walking out of alignment. Most of my straight knife jointers had jackscrews under the knives which makes it way easier to set anyway but the snugging thing helps.

That MultiGauge does look rather useful, it would definitely save a lot of fiddling time - which I could then spend on trying to tighten the screws evently. Late last night, I found that if I set the far end of the knive .001" above the "final" height and the near end .0035" below, it comes out dead even....most of the time.

Reducing my expectations has helped me. I don't expect finished results from a jointer or planer.

That's a good point. The washboard finish I'm getting right now is too poor though, I don't mind a little sanding/ scraping but this is just too awful.

Bas, it sounds like you need to get a shelix style head for your jointer.

I'm very tempted. If I ever do upgrade to an 8" jointer, that's what I'm getting.

It's probably the worst job one has to do in the shop. I can get some more life from the blades by honing the in place with a gismo I bought a few years ago. Its Woodcraft item #123679.

Well, I feel better now. At least it's not just me I'll check out the knife hone, even if I can only squeeze out a few more board feet that will be worth it.

Travis has offered to come help, I think he wants to practice on a scale model before tackling his 16" jointer by himself That should help.

Thanks for all the advice. Late last night, I got the knives to where the outer 3" produce a reasonable finish. The inside (closest to the fence) 3" are not so great. But, at this point, this may not be an alignment issue anymore, but due to the blades getting nicked. I need to find something to cover those magnets....

 

[Keye]

Bas, don't worry, you will finally figure it out. And the really good news is that what worked so great will not work the next time:rotflm::rotflm:.

I feel your pain. Mine can go from great to horrible while I am eating lunch.

 

[cpowell]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nativespec
Reducing my expectations has helped me. I don't expect finished results from a jointer or planer.

David

I'm with David on the lowered expectations. Additionaly, I'll do almost anything short of buying a new jointer to keep from losing my religion trying to change blades. It's proably the worst job one has to do in the shop. I can get some more life from the blades by honing the in place with a gismo I bought a few years ago. Its Woodcraft item #123679.

I'm with David and Larry on this. The jointer is not for a finished surface.

I actually use the "stick" approach, described in several posts on Woodnet, for setting the jointer knives on my 8 inch Yorkcraft. It takes less than 30 minutes. I intentionally set the knives just a smidge high with this technigue, then edge joint dimensioned stock. I move the outfeed up until the snipe is acceptably gone and I'm done.

There is a screw on either side to raise/lower the knives on my jointer. Once I get both sides of a knife at the desired height, I tighten the set screws and am done. This system allows me to apply downward pressure on the knife edge with a wood block as I tighten the set screws.

I would argue that setting the knive exactly even with the outfeed table is just going to cause you headache. This causes the leading edge of the stock to meet the edge of the outfeed table. I set my knives a smidge higher. Edge jointing then moving the outfeed table until snipe is gone will take care of the problem. If you have to really PUSH stock through the jointer then your knives are too low.

I also touch up with a hone one or two time before I replace blades.


Chuck

 

[dino drosas]

Bas, If you plan to keep that jointer for a while, you should consider installing disposable blades. The system is like what is now on my newer Felder J/P. I adapted this system to my first Felder back in the early 90's. It was an easy install and worked perfectly. Blade changes can be done in less than 15 minutes and are correctly set every time. you can see this set up at :
www.estausa.com

If you would like to talk about it, give me a call at 843-449-3744.

 

[SteveHall]

Bas, how much do you loosen the screws? On my old Delta 6", I've found I don't need to loosen them so much to move them. And when I loosen enough to easily pull them out, the tightening part has the same effect you are seeing. Of course, this underlined for me how important it is to get them tight in the first place!

 

[gator]

Reducing my expectations has helped me. I don't expect finished results from a jointer or planer.

David

I've been thinking about this post for a while and maybe I'm missing something. Whenever the question is asked on any of the forums about why not use S4S, the response is usually two-fold. First is 'consistancy' of thickness and this I can understand (a little) due to which mill or mill run the S4S came through. Not all planers at all mills are set exactly the same. Second is that the finish is not as good as you can do yourself. Therefore you should buy a jointer and planer. True, the finish off of a jointer is not the best but then you run it through the planer after anyway (but you need to joint it first). But, the finish off of the planer should be very good. If it weren't then why spend big bucks on the two tools and just use S4S, glue the pieces up, grab a belt sander to smooth out any inconsistantcies and then the ROS (or a scraper for the perfectionists) for a finish ready surface. No, I expect a near perfect surface from my planer and an almost perfect surface from my jointer. All I expect to do before finishing is light sanding or scraping.

George

 

[Bas]

Seems reasonable. It would take me 4-5 years to learn how to turn a bowl

 

[Bas]

I actually use the "stick" approach, described in several posts on Woodnet, [...] I intentionally set the knives just a smidge high with this technigue, then edge joint dimensioned stock. I move the outfeed up until the snipe is acceptably gone and I'm done.

I tried the stick method too, works great. Although it's easier if you put a stick over the cutterhead and rotate it BEFORE you read the instructions. Saves a lot of time when you can visualize the end result. Jig, stick, dial indicator, they all work well.

There is a screw on either side to raise/lower the knives on my jointer. Once I get both sides of a knife at the desired height, I tighten the set screws and am done. This system allows me to apply downward pressure on the knife edge with a wood block as I tighten the set screws.

Right, mine has the same kind of screw. I can use it to raise the knife, or lower it (well, I adjust the screw, then have to push it down). What I figured out late last night is that after aligning the knife and tightening the screws on the gib, I also need to tighten the set screws. That doesn't move the knife of course - the gib holds it in place. But, if I have to go back and make adjustments (because tightening the gib screws caused the !@#!@ knife to move), it's much more stable. Especially when you're the knife down with a block of wood - that was a great tip.

I would argue that setting the knive exactly even with the outfeed table is just going to cause you headache. This causes the leading edge of the stock to meet the edge of the outfeed table. I set my knives a smidge higher.

Yup, I try to get the knives .002" higher than the outfeed table.

I also touch up with a hone one or two time before I replace blades.

The hone makes a big difference - someone else recommended it as well. See below.

Bas, If you plan to keep that jointer for a while, you should consider installing disposable blades.

I do plan to upgrade eventually to an 8" jointer (unless I get an 18" bandsaw of course ), but when I do, I will DEFINITELY go with disposable blades, shelix cutterhead, or something else that doesn't require adjustments in the 0.002" range with a WRENCH.

Bas, how much do you loosen the screws? On my old Delta 6", I've found I don't need to loosen them so much to move them. And when I loosen enough to easily pull them out, the tightening part has the same effect you are seeing. Of course, this underlined for me how important it is to get them tight in the first place!

I've experimented with that. I try to get them just loose enough I can actually move the blade, but keep them tight enough to minimize the "creep" that comes from tightening. I've found that it helps to vary the tightness. I keep the screw furthest from the end I'm adjusting the tightest, and then progressively loosen them.

Bas, don't worry, you will finally figure it out.

I did!

And the really good news is that what worked so great will not work the next time. I feel your pain. Mine can go from great to horrible while I am eating lunch.

I don't doubt it. But, with the collective WW wisdom here, I can solve ANYTHING.

So late last night I got the knives reasonably straight. It helps to put a small pillow under your knees while you're praying to the Jointer gods (well, that's what it must have looked like :eusa_pray), ensures you can go that extra 20 minutes before giving up. Bob (Woodartz) came by this morning to pick up his mobile base (all my base no longer belong to us....), and brought his Omnijig. That thing is definitely much easier to use than your garden variety dial indicator base. Adjusted two knives that were set a little too high on one end. Results were halfway decent!

This afternoon I got a honing jig at Klingspor (the last one!), and touched up the knives. Holy Jointer Jigs Batman! The finish was as good as when I first got the machine with the factory installation.

So, a GREAT BIG collective Thank You to everyone for their input and help. :eusa_clap:eusa_clap:eusa_clap As usual, it's the combination of all the little things that make it work.

 

[Woodman2k]

Bas,
I also feel your pain.I spent 2 hours over two different nights trying to get my knives set correctly.I used a magnetic jig and a homemade idea for a block of wood to hold the knives on the jacking screws.Finally got it acceptable and starting snooping and realized that my **** Delta slopes down towards the outfeed end of the machine.SHIMS-Now my neighbor comes over and runs 2 boards that still have staples in them and now my knives have nicks in them.I get to start over.That Shop Fox looks better and better every day.
If anybody within a thousand miles gets proficient at this job in any way please call me and I will come and pick you up,seriously!!!
Greg

 

[JackLeg]

Man, I'm glad I read this! I've got an old Walker-Turner that I was planning to try to put back in service, and the first thing I was going to do was pull the blades and have them sharpened. :wconfused:

After reading this, I think I'll wait until I have a month or so free!! :rotflm:

Holy Cow, Batman!