I am noticing some separation of wood with my walnut secretary. I hope it is lack of moisture in the house and that it will return to normal come spring. If that isn't a shared opinion of my fellow woodworkers would you let me know what you think. These joints were together during the beginning. Would you please tell me how to avoid this in future projects? Lorraine
Joint separation, why?
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It's hard to see the particular joint that you are speaking of. I am thinking that it is the divider between the drawers? That being a cross grain situation and probably not glued, you should expect some movement and interior conditions in a heated house are as dry as they can be right now, so some shrinkage will be occuring. If the piece was built in a shop that isn't as climate controlled as the inside you your house then a tight fit in the shop could be less than tight in a drier envirnoment.
Dave
Dave
You will also see on the right hand picture that the rail has also moved. This movement is on the right side of the piece and has opened on all four dados. Would that also be climate and is there a way to prevent this from showing on my next project?
Gluing at the front and letting the back move is a great idea. I just don't want anything to fall apart. Lorraine
Gluing at the front and letting the back move is a great idea. I just don't want anything to fall apart. Lorraine
The problem with partition between the drawers is a cross-grain issue- different rates of moisture related movement between the partition and the rails. As others have said, typically you only glue the front two inches or so and let the rest float.
Are there any mechanical fasteners holding the rails in the stile/side dadoes, or just glue? There doesn't seem to be enough glue surface to hold it securely and/or the glue is failing. Most casework like this either has some sort of mechanical fastening (screw from the outside or brads toenailed from the inside) or a dovetail joint (instead of a dado.) When using a dovetail, it is usually just the front 2" or so of the frame that is dovetailed which is also glued. A floating (no glue) dado joint is used the rest of the way to the back of the case. Sometimes a dovetail is used at the back also. The dovetails will hold the case together with no glue.
One, after the fact solution to hold the rails to the stiles/sides is to use a pocket screw or two in the rail.
Are there any mechanical fasteners holding the rails in the stile/side dadoes, or just glue? There doesn't seem to be enough glue surface to hold it securely and/or the glue is failing. Most casework like this either has some sort of mechanical fastening (screw from the outside or brads toenailed from the inside) or a dovetail joint (instead of a dado.) When using a dovetail, it is usually just the front 2" or so of the frame that is dovetailed which is also glued. A floating (no glue) dado joint is used the rest of the way to the back of the case. Sometimes a dovetail is used at the back also. The dovetails will hold the case together with no glue.
One, after the fact solution to hold the rails to the stiles/sides is to use a pocket screw or two in the rail.
Allen, there are brad in all the rails.
Dan, I have never heard of putting water under a piece of furniture but it does make since. I am not worried about the piece coming apart I just hope it will go back during the spring and summer. And I wanted to know if I had done anything wrong that I could look for in my next piece of furniture. Once my kitchen is completed I plan to start on a bedroom suite. I have a free room now that my daughter has moved out and we all know I can't go out and buy a bedroom suite. My husband seems to think we have to also make the bed. I plan on a nightstand or table to go by the bed, a dresser and the bed. My brother and I started a Norma Abram chest before he died. I brought it home and put it in the storage building. I have lost the instructions and can't find it on his website so I am going to wing it when I come to finishing it. It is made of red oak plywood side with dado's on the inside of the plywood and a web frame. I think I know how to comtinue with it now. It should go into that bedroom don't you think? Lorraine
J
jeff...
I'm coming in late on this thread but it seems like your "case" has been solved. If I might add, Wood mag had a good article not long ago on dealing wood movement in joints. It mentions the good things folks have said so far and then some.
Thanks
Thanks
Hi Lorraine,
Alan is correct in that a straight unglued dado is not a good choice here, brads or not. Wood movement is virtually unstoppable except by a strong mechanical fastening; traditionally a dovetail either full length or the first two inches. Glue in this case probably wouldn't hold either, the forces are too great, and if the glue did hold then the wood would split! With the width of the pieces you are dealing with in the rails I am surprised you had this much movement unless the change in humidity between the shop and the house was great or the wood had not finished its natural changes before you assembled the cabinet. I always bring my KD wood into the shop to "relax" for couple of weeks then I partially mill the stock then leave for another couple weeks before milling to final dimensions. This strategy has always kept my pieces intact. Once I am at the final milling stage I often bring all the pieces into the house when I am not working on it. During the bed build I was lugging the parts in and out each night after working on it! Carol loved that!!
Alan is correct in that a straight unglued dado is not a good choice here, brads or not. Wood movement is virtually unstoppable except by a strong mechanical fastening; traditionally a dovetail either full length or the first two inches. Glue in this case probably wouldn't hold either, the forces are too great, and if the glue did hold then the wood would split! With the width of the pieces you are dealing with in the rails I am surprised you had this much movement unless the change in humidity between the shop and the house was great or the wood had not finished its natural changes before you assembled the cabinet. I always bring my KD wood into the shop to "relax" for couple of weeks then I partially mill the stock then leave for another couple weeks before milling to final dimensions. This strategy has always kept my pieces intact. Once I am at the final milling stage I often bring all the pieces into the house when I am not working on it. During the bed build I was lugging the parts in and out each night after working on it! Carol loved that!!
My only comment/suggestion is you have to allow for wood movement of solid panels. It should be figured into your design, preferably where it is allowed to move towards the back for this type of piece instead of moving to the front.
Let me see if I understand. I glue the first two inches on the front of the cabinet and brad or screw web framing into place. Or don't glue at all. This is to allow for the piece to move from the back only. For information sake, my wood is air dried. The shop has heat and air only when I use it so there would be a great difference from the shop to the house. The sides of the cabinet are solid wood not plywood. I used brads two per dado. I could have used screws just as easily. Is it the opinion of others that maybe screws would be better than brads and would I make the holes slightly larger to allow for movement? I have yet to try my hand at dovetails on the front of the cabinet, maybe I should consider it for my next project. I noticed Allen saying toenail the framing from the inside, my brads are on the outside and the wood pulled away from the side. So would toenailing from the inside keep it from moving. Could I go back now and toenail it in during the summer when it returns to it original place? Or could I put a clamp on it and toenail it in before the spring or summer has a chance to bring it back in.
I don't mind this as long as it can't come apart. This is learning for me and for others who are reading this post.
I don't mind this as long as it can't come apart. This is learning for me and for others who are reading this post.
I had to do a double-take to verify I was seeing end grain on the divider.
I agree with the expert advice given and appreciate their suggestions myself. :icon_thum
Lorraine I like to use face frame construction with the top floating to minimize visual impact due to seasonal moisture changes. I fasten the top to internal frame members that stretch from the face frames to the rear panel using screws from underneath and slotted holes to accommodate movement. I use washer head screws which are flat where they meet the wood and don't overtighten. A very slight gap (a few thousandths) between screw surface and wood surface is okay. I don't use slots for the first row of screws at the front since I want that reference point to stay constant. An overhang on the top (front side) helps hide movement, too.
Assuming the same species wood is used throughout the face frame construction, or different species that have nearly the same movement with moisture change, the movement with moisture change is not noticeable to the untrained eye. I also try to make sure all stock is at the same moisture content by letting it sit in the shop for a while before I start. I have used M&T face frames on all of my dresser/chest/nightstand projects.
I do see a seasonal change in the drawer gap in inset drawers top and bottom but that's unavoidable.
Chuck
I agree with the expert advice given and appreciate their suggestions myself. :icon_thum
Lorraine I like to use face frame construction with the top floating to minimize visual impact due to seasonal moisture changes. I fasten the top to internal frame members that stretch from the face frames to the rear panel using screws from underneath and slotted holes to accommodate movement. I use washer head screws which are flat where they meet the wood and don't overtighten. A very slight gap (a few thousandths) between screw surface and wood surface is okay. I don't use slots for the first row of screws at the front since I want that reference point to stay constant. An overhang on the top (front side) helps hide movement, too.
Assuming the same species wood is used throughout the face frame construction, or different species that have nearly the same movement with moisture change, the movement with moisture change is not noticeable to the untrained eye. I also try to make sure all stock is at the same moisture content by letting it sit in the shop for a while before I start. I have used M&T face frames on all of my dresser/chest/nightstand projects.
I do see a seasonal change in the drawer gap in inset drawers top and bottom but that's unavoidable.
Chuck
Hi Lorraine,
The only problem with the screws is covering them up. Going from the inside of the cabinet with a pocket screw as was suggested is one way, but because this would be at an angle it would be difficult to enlarge the hole to allow movement. I guess the old timers knew best and that's why they did what they did and dovetailed the front. If the piece has a glued in back then there is no worry about just using a non glued dado for the remaining length of the sides with the front 2" glued, as the back will stop the sides possibly bowing out and dropping the shelf. An alternative might be a separate piece across the back to hold the case sides together. This should be Dovetailed and being at the back if it's not perfect visually only you will know, but it would have achieved the result. Dealing with solid wood sides in a wide case is as tricky as it gets and there is no quick solution, just good technique.
I have the original of this book and it has always shown the correct technigues; I never design anything without it!
Amazon.com: Encyclopedia of Furniture Making: Books: Ernest Joyce,Alan Peters,Patrick Spielman,Joyce Ernest
If I may I would like to clarify some.
Lorraine,
Is the divider that is sticking out a solid piece of wood that goes the entire length, or is it just a short stub tied to a web frame or a short stub on its own?
Is the top a solid piece of wood (I am guessing yes)
For your web frames, did you glue the the entire length in the carcass of the cabinet?
FWIW, the brads aren't a big deal in my opinion. They will bend when the wood shrinks and contracts. To me, it looks like your top has shrunk, but your divider has stayed in place, but it is hard to tell, and it depends on your construction methods.
Will it come back out in the summer? I would guess yes, but it will happen again, and IMO, it will weaken or get loose if you do not address it. Remember a large top will move maybe a 1/2" from summer to winter.
Clarifying one point that David suggested, you can screw the first 2" and not worry about it, but the remainder has to has screw holes widened to allow the wood to expand. Do not glue it past the first two inches. Brads would work as they will bend.
It seems to me your top and sides have shrunk while your frame has stayed in place. If you do screw the front two inches from the inside with pocket holes and screws as Alan suggests (which I have done to fix this type of issue and it does work) does the wood have the ability to move at the rear of the cabinet or is the back going to keep it from moving?
Lots of options and lots to think about. It does suck though. I learned the hardway with a headboard I built with raised panels. I made the panels too tight and that summer, it busted the joints apart.
Lorraine,
Is the divider that is sticking out a solid piece of wood that goes the entire length, or is it just a short stub tied to a web frame or a short stub on its own?
Is the top a solid piece of wood (I am guessing yes)
For your web frames, did you glue the the entire length in the carcass of the cabinet?
FWIW, the brads aren't a big deal in my opinion. They will bend when the wood shrinks and contracts. To me, it looks like your top has shrunk, but your divider has stayed in place, but it is hard to tell, and it depends on your construction methods.
Will it come back out in the summer? I would guess yes, but it will happen again, and IMO, it will weaken or get loose if you do not address it. Remember a large top will move maybe a 1/2" from summer to winter.
Clarifying one point that David suggested, you can screw the first 2" and not worry about it, but the remainder has to has screw holes widened to allow the wood to expand. Do not glue it past the first two inches. Brads would work as they will bend.
It seems to me your top and sides have shrunk while your frame has stayed in place. If you do screw the front two inches from the inside with pocket holes and screws as Alan suggests (which I have done to fix this type of issue and it does work) does the wood have the ability to move at the rear of the cabinet or is the back going to keep it from moving?
Lots of options and lots to think about. It does suck though. I learned the hardway with a headboard I built with raised panels. I made the panels too tight and that summer, it busted the joints apart.
Travis, The divider goes the entire length of the cabinet. And the top is Solid. I can't remember but I think I just glued the middle and placed brads in from the outside. The top didn't shrink because the sides are still flush with the framing. I tried to tailor my project using one of Norm Abrams books but if he used a dovetail in the front I didn't do that because I felt I didn't know enough to attempt that. I will address the problem over the summer so that it will not continue to happen year after year. I expect I will putting screws in the first 2 inches. Thanks to all, you as well Chuck. I do remember Norm toetailing into the frame. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. Lorraine
LOL, I remember Norm doing a lot of that!!:lol:
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