Help! Wood and technique for China Cabinet

[CDPeters]

OK Folks, I have my next major project assignment from LOML! She wants a china cabinet to go along with a buffet that has been in her family. Now I know asking for a wood identification by photos of questionable quality over the internet is a stretch, but what the heck - never know unless you ask! I also need your input on reproducing one of the elements in the original piece.

So here is the buffet in question: (there are more photos in my gallery)

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And a closer view:

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So. Question number one is your thoughts on the material. I am thinking that it is mahogany, though in some places it looks suspiciously like stained oak - see the corner of the door just above right of the veneer in the photo above. The panel book match veneers look like maybe a burl maple. Your thoughts????

The second part is the profile of the front corner post/legs. I need some input on how you would approach making them. My initial thought was custom shaper knives, but I think the acute interior angle (i.e. the "bead" is greater than a half-circle) in the profile precludes that notion (PLUS I don't own a shaper :cry_smile). Maybe multiple passes with an appropriate 1/4 round style cutter? I am thinking about getting one of those molder heads for the TS - like Craftsman used to make.

Here's a drawing of the profile and a picture of the post:

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So what do you think? What is the wood (or what do you think I should use for a best match :eusa_thin) and how would you approach re-producing the corner posts? There's more pictures in the gallery if you need them.

Thanks everyone!
Chris. :icon_scra

 

[ehpoole]

I'm not going to try and do a wood identification (I'm not terribly good at it unless it is a wood *I* know well!).

However, I would think that either a beading bit or a radius point bit would allow you to create most of the profile -- or you could go old school and use a handplane with a proper radius to do the job. You would have to finish off the terminal ends with a chisel most likely to get the diagonal fade-in right, but the remainder can be done with a router if you wish. Or, if it looks ok with a curved fade-in, then you could skip the chisel handiwork and just acccept the router's radiused end.

PS - If you need photos of the router bits I'm referring to, just let me know and I'll snap a photo for you (I have both bits, just not in your project's diameters).

 

[CDPeters]

Thanks Ethan - I was beginning to wonder if I had stumped everyone!

A beading bit - got it. If I recall a point cutting roundover is basically the same as a bearing roundover, except no shoulder/bearing. It comes to a point at the top of the bit. Correct?

I seriously thinking about putting one of those Corob Molding Head units (clone of the old Craftsman TS Molding set) on my Christmas list. A shaper is out of the question, but that looks like a good middle ground between a full blown shaper and a router table. Plus you get the additional advantage of utilizing the tilting arbor :wsmile:.

Thanks for the input - anyone else?
C.

 

[FredP]

the wood is mahogany but the door panels? :dontknow: the bit mentioned above won't do it. the bit will be turning so you will get the same roundover on both sides. this was done with hand planes. you could do most of it with a roundover bit but the rest will need hand work.:wwink: lots of hand work.....:gar-La; others with more knowledge than I may know what planes will work. the transition to the bead I believe would be carved by hand also.:icon_thum

 

[Mike Davis]

How wide is that half round? It looks much wider than 7/8 which is the largest knife I have seen for a table saw.

I think that was done with a combination of hand planer and some hand carving. I have never seen any power tool that would make a round fade into a flat slope like that. Even if you can get a router bit large enough to make the bead from each side then you will have to carve the transition from round to flat.

Very hard to tell the wood from photos, looks like it may have been stripped at some time in the past too. That close up of the inside corner of the door does look like mahogany. The secondary wood inside looks like white oak. Most of the outside reminds me of hard maple.

Most likely none of that is very helpful, but I tried... :dontknow:



my slow typing shows again

 

[ehpoole]

:wink_smil

the wood is mahogany but the door panels? :dontknow: the bit mentioned above won't do it. the bit will be turning so you will get the same roundover on both sides. this was done with hand planes. you could do most of it with a roundover bit but the rest will need hand work.

Fred,

What I envisioned in my suggestion was two passes with a beading bit, rotating the board 90deg between passes. Either I'm blind (which probably isn't far from the truth -- esp sans glasses!), but I can't see why this profile can not be created in such a way. I suppose if we need to settle the issue I can break down and setup my router and make the profile -- let me know if you still believe it can not be done, in which case I'll go ahead and create the profile to positively determine which of us is correct. :wink_smil

 

[ehpoole]

Thanks Ethan - I was beginning to wonder if I had stumped everyone!

A beading bit - got it. If I recall a point cutting roundover is basically the same as a bearing roundover, except no shoulder/bearing. It comes to a point at the top of the bit. Correct?

That's correct, another way to envision a point bit is to imagine a V-groove bit with radiused edges rather than straight 45deg edges. It won't give you the corner roundover, but you can easily round off the very corner with sandpaper or a roundover bit of equal radius.

 

[mkepke]

How wide is that half round? It looks much wider than 7/8 which is the largest knife I have seen for a table saw.

I think that was done with a combination of hand planer and some hand carving. I have never seen any power tool that would make a round fade into a flat slope like that. Even if you can get a router bit large enough to make the bead from each side then you will have to carve the transition from round to flat.

<snip>

Actually it would not be hard to make. Just do it in TWO parts: a round spindle (or a round with a flat) and the corresponding inside corner on the carcass.

There is no particular reason, I think, to use a single continuous piece. The wood is fine grained so perfect grain match is not required.

-Mark

 

[FredP]

:wink_smil

Fred,

What I envisioned in my suggestion was two passes with a beading bit, rotating the board 90deg between passes. Either I'm blind (which probably isn't far from the truth -- esp sans glasses!), but I can't see why this profile can not be created in such a way. I suppose if we need to settle the issue I can break down and setup my router and make the profile -- let me know if you still believe it can not be done, in which case I'll go ahead and create the profile to positively determine which of us is correct. :wink_smil

a beading bit [a large beading bit] would get you most of the way but there will still be some hand work to make the transition at the top and bottom. someone mentioned a roundover without a bearing and coming to a point. I may not have my head wrapped around what was said though [quite possible]:gar-Bi the round part looks to be more than a half circle. that may also be an illusion.???

 

[BSHuff]

I think that edge detail is carved/planed. I could see a bit something like a Freud 83-120 as a potential to make something similar. I don't see the exact profile but it gives an idea. Would have to mill 2 sides to complete it. Probably run it on a router table and stop cut on each side and have the bit at the exact height to make the round go more than 180 degree like that. Then finish the end with carving.

 

[mshel]

Based on the grain patterns and color, I would say it is Walnut rather than mahogany. Try to find a spot inside the cabinet where it isn't finished and that will either confirm or not. The door panels appear to be veneered with burl.



Mike

 

[robliles]

I agree with Mike. The wood looks to me like some really old walnut. I have done some repairs to a really old table at my church and was convinced it was mahogany only to realize it was indeed walnut after getting into the work. I have an antique walnut secretary from England and the wood in your pictures look very much like it. Could your original piece be English walnut? Good luck on the profile. There are some really great suggestions for it and it looks like it would be a fun challenge to try and duplicate.

Rob

 

[ehpoole]

Ok, my results at the router:

1) If you can get a Beading bit custom ground (45% bevel at lower, outermost corner of bit), you could duplicate the effect perfectly..

2) You can come very close to the effect using first a roundover bit to round the corner, followed by a radius point (of the same radius) to under cut the the radius on each side (to partially continue the circle).

3) Provided you have a long enough shaft on the bit (or a shaft extension) and you can tilt either the bit or the workpiece at a 45deg angle, a standard (unmodified) beading bit seems to perfectly (near as I can tell) recreate the effect in the photo.

4) The next alternative is to either have a bit custom made (a pretty decent diameter at 45deg miter), or to grind (or have made) a scraper matching the desired profile, harden it, then use that to handscrape the profile.

NOTE: The profile on the RIGHT was made with two passes using a standard beading bit. The profile on the LEFT was created using a 1/4" roundover bit followed by a 3/16" radius point bit on each side to undercut the radius/bead. The effect here is more oval due to the fact that my bits were of two very different radii. Had the roundover bit and the radius pilot bit both been of the same radius, and provided the undercut was made at the appropriate setback to continue the radius, then my corner bead would have been CIRCULAR and NOT OVAL! This effect came the closest to matching the sample photo with the exception of using a beading bit at a 45deg angle to the workpiece (provided a long enough shaft/extension were available and either the workpiece were tilted 45deg or a tilting arbor router were used to achieve the result).

With respect to the RIGHT hand side (made using a standard beading bit), you can easily see how regrinding the innermost edge (outermost cutting edge on the actual bit) to a 45deg angle, rather than the squarish profile typical of this bit, would also yield a near perfect replica of the sample corner bead in the OP's photo.

I hope this info proves useful.

 

[Bill Clemmons]

As for the profile, I was thinking along the same lines as Mark. Could you make it in two parts? A rectangle post w/ a stopped rabbet, then a round posts w/ the back squared off. If you carefully select your pieces for straight grain, they should blend well. Hog out the wood on the rectangle post w/ a router, or at the router table, then use a chisel to make the tapered ends. After you've turned the round post, mount them in a carriage/sled (kinda like a taper jig) and run them through the TS to get the 90* on the back.

HTH

Bill

 

[CDPeters]

Thanks everyone!

I had not considered walnut - as I have very little (no) experience working with it. I guess a trip to Yukon to look at the racks is in order :gar-Bi.

Ethan - man I did NOT expect anyone to run proof-of-concept in the shop. Thank you!

I spent alot of time with my son last night who is learning Autodesk Inventory in his HS technology class. We built a model of the leg and then played around with cutter profiles. I think we found one that is 1" wide and would make the profile in two passes 90 degrees apart.

Every project should include a justification for a new tool, right:eusa_danc? So I'm thinking if Corob Cutters can make the cutters without it costing me an arm and a leg, maybe purchase (or Christmas present wish list) of their MHK25 kit might be in order.

Does anyone have any experience with these (MHK25)?

Thank you, thank you everyone!
Chris

 

[ehpoole]

Thanks everyone!

Ethan - man I did NOT expect anyone to run proof-of-concept in the shop. Thank you!

Every project should include a justification for a new tool, right:eusa_danc? So I'm thinking if Corob Cutters can make the cutters without it costing me an arm and a leg, maybe purchase (or Christmas present wish list) of their MHK25 kit might be in order.

Chris

Chris, the proof-of-concept was really no trouble (I spent maybe 30 minutes on it) since I already owned the bits. Unfortunately, I did not own roundover and raidus point bits of identical diameter.

I thought about a tablesaw mounted molding accessory as well. If you can get a standard roundover/beading bit (the beading means it will also cut a flat region to the side of the quarter circle), then make two passes with your post secured to a 45degree sled/support. Two passes would then make the complete post. The only catch: figuring out an optimal manner to stop the cut towards each in, then fade-in the transition effect. You may still wish for a custom scraper for that effect (unless you are a good carver, which I am not). Then again, there is no rule that says your creation has to be a 100% copy of the original.

Good luck with your project!

 

[striker]

Personally, I don’t know that I would spend the money on a specialized tool unless there was a continued use for it. My preference would be to try doing it in a scratch box.





Stephen

 

[Bob Carreiro]

Here's what I'd do Chris,
Use a 1-1/4" dowel and rip, or edge-joint a 1/16" off on two surfaces 90 degrees to each other. This matches the dimentions of your sketch. Rip a board 1-1/16" X 1-3/16, and another 3/8" X 2-1/8" and attach the thinner pc to the smaller edge of the larger pc. Position the dowell with the flats into the fabricated corner made by the two pcs and fasten. The top & bottom can easily be made to appear as though it is the same pc of wood.
good luck,
Bob

 

[CDPeters]

[BANANA]Thanks everyone![/BANANA]

Actually, the Corob MHK25 is a pretty good deal at $65 for a starter set of a head and 3 cutter sets. I would use this enough to justify it. If have an inquiry in with Corob on grinding custom cutters.

When my uncle brought my grandfathers RAS to me last year, he mentioned that somewhere he has an old Craftsman set that belonged to my grandfather. Gramp was a pattern maker and frequently custom ground his own cutters for it. If he can find the set, I might just get it for Christmas - or maybe Santa will bring the Corob :eusa_danc.