Compressed Air Lines

Status
Not open for further replies.

scsmith42

New User
Scott Smith
Lots of good advice on this string so far.

In my various shops and barns over the past 30+ years, at one time or another I have used just about every type of piping system out there, including copper, air hoses, PVC, black pipe, medical tubing and Pex.

If I needed to build something today that was economical but safe, my first choice would be PEX. 150+ PSI rated tubing is readily available, and inexpensive. It is flexible enough to allow sweeping curves, thus saving flow losses caused by fittings. It is very easy to modify post installation if you need to add an additional drop, and water trapped inside will not rust the way that black pipe will. Crimping is easy too (as opposed to sweating, which truth be told I enjoy doing).

For a pro shop, I would use black pipe.

Copper is nice, but considering the current prices I think that it is over-rated as opposed to using PEX.

The Rapid Air system is clean and nice; my only objection is that most systems use smaller diameter lines that restrict air flow for high-volume applications (such as bead blast cabinets, air die grinders, etc).

My 2 cents.
 

Randall Kepley

New User
Randall
I disagree w/ the non PVC areas of this thread. I have a pro shop and the one Im in now Ive been in for almost 10 yrs, my last shop was plummed w/ PVC and even though I wasnt in that shop from the begining it has been plummed for well over 20 yrs. The Key to using PVC is good fully cured connections and clamped and screwed to the wall every other stud at least. In the old shop and in the new I have yet to experience a failure due to the fault of the PVC. My lines are under 150psi 24hrs a day 365, no time off. In the old shop (which I did not plum) there were several areas in the shop the the PVC was exposed were broken due to sliding lumber or what not giving a direct hit to the line and cause it to fail . Now what happens when this happens is the line breaks and you hear a very loud gush of air which I must say can scrare the crap out of you but thats about it. There is no explosion, there is no shards flying everywhere , your walls are not coming down or the world ending. If you take the time to anchor the PVC to at least every other stud ( I did mine in the new shop at almost every stud ) the break is contained to that area and thats about it. This is not hearsay this is what I have witnessed myself on more than one occasion.

But like I said it has and never will be due to a fault of the PVC. The fact is your compressior cannot produce enough pressure to cause a failure providing you plum your lines the correct way. PVC does not deteriorate just because its old, it deteriorates if exposed to excessive sunlight (UV rays will break it down after a long period of time but sunlight doesnt pose a problem in most shops. In the new shop I plummed it in such a way as to never have to worry about falling objects and what not. And Ill tell you what I will bet anyone dimes to dollars if you had plummed w/ copper and the copper to the same lick the PVC did , it would have failed to . The flip side is when you need to repair or add a section or just head in a diff direction , its cheap and limitless. JMO but this is not hearsay this is what I use everyday and will continue to use.

BTW , I heard one time , if you step on a crack you would break your mommas back..... glad I didnt believe that one either :rotflm: R.K.
 

petebucy4638

Pete
Corporate Member
I'm thinking about adding some compressed air lines in my shop but don't have a clue where to start. I've read a few things on using PVC but see that some people don't recommend it. Just curious what everyone is using. I'd like to run a single line across one wall of my shop and have 3 or 4 connection points. Does anyone have any suggestions on this. I'd also prefer not to have to spend a ton. The biggest reason for even doing this is keeping as much air line off the floor as possible, I'm trying to run a more organized shop.

PVC can shatter like a grenade at higher air pressures. Copper pipe is a good choice, so is steel pipe. You can use PEX pipe too. PEX is less expensvie than copper, easier to work, and very durable. On new homes we routinely test it to over 120 psi and have never had any problems.

Pete
 

ehpoole

Ethan
Corporate Member
My comments with respect to usage of Rigid PVC for Compressed Air Distribution

1) Rigid PVC is prohibited for distribution of compressed gas (incl. air) by OSHA, ANSI, and ASME unless specifically manufactured for compressed air and labeled by the manufacturer for AIRLINE use (even then, only within strict guidelines).

2) Rigid PVC is prohibited for distribution of compressed gas (incl. air) by, of all parties, the manufacturers of rigid PVC pipe (this is true of all schedules through atleast 120) since at least 1972.

3) If a worker injury results from a compressed air accident resulting from rigid PVC compressed air distribution, not only will you likely get a [Section 5(a)(1)] citation pending an OSHA investigation, but any insurance claims resulting from the injury (and any related property damage) are unlikely to be reimbursed by your insurer. Small businesses running small shop air compressors at typical shop pressures of 120-175PSI in rigid PVC pipe have actually folded after employee and/or customer injury lawsuits and damages following such incidents.

4) Serious injury pending failure of rigid PVC compressed air distribution lines is not hearsay. Nor are these systems at especially high pressure. Dangerous failures have occurred even at system pressurization levels below 100PSI, well below many shop distribution pressures of 135-175PSI.

PVC pipe, despite some commentary to the opposite, will still deteriorate, albeit more slowly, in an indoor environment. There are three major elements that will deterioriate PVC with time (microfractures aside): 1) Ultraviolet exposure (outdoors from sun; indoors from fluorescent and halogen/xenon lighting), 2) Ozone and other pollutants (incl. oil), and 3) accumulation of micro-fractures (unavoidable in use). The interior of the PVC will deteriorate at a greater than normal rate due to the greater density of ozone and pollutants within (at 150 PSI you have 11-12 atmospheres of compressed pollutants within your air). The exterior will deteriorate at a more typical rate depending upon your local pollutant levels and oil blow-by and the degree of UV exposure it is subject to (e.g. much greater with sun exposure or near any ozone generating sources, including sources of electrical arc). With age, these will make the PVC increasingly more brittle and less durable and prone to fracture. The heavier the schedule, the greater the wall cross section, and the longer and the better PVC will survive such conditions.

Rigid PVC has another problematic characteristic at normal ambient usage temperatures (ranging from, say, freezing to 120F+). The colder PVC becomes the more brittle it becomes. At warmer temperatures (say 140+) it also becomes softer and more prone to blowout under pressure (the higher the pressure the lower the necessary temperature for failure). As a point of fact, at 130F rigid PVC is 1/2 as strong (resistance to deformation under pressure) as it is at 73F and at 32F it is roughly 4x more brittle than at 73F. Unlike metal piping (Aluminum, Copper, Iron, or Steel) distribution systems, which, while subject to similar characteristics, do not exhibit these characteristics at any temperature remotely tolerable to human habitation (well below freezing up to a several hundred degrees for soldered joints, much greater for brazed or threaded joints). This means that a PVC pipe may survive a modest impact at 90F but fail catastrophically and explosively on a 32F day. Age related deterioration will amplify these results, especially at lower temperatures.

No offense intended, but if I give even, say, 3/4" to 1" Shedule 40 rigid PVC a good strong blow with a 2lb sledge it will likely result in a predictable degree of fragmentation even in the absence of pressure. By comparison, if I took a 20lb sledge to a copper line all I would do is crush the line with no catastrophic failure. I might get partial failure if I wail away at a fitting, but in all likelihood I would simply have crushed the line (a simple repair). In a more typical impact, little if any damage will be sustained by a copper distribution line (type L is the mininum recommended thickness for compressed air distribution). A similar impact with a 20lb sledge to black iron or galvanized pipe *might* damage the pipe -- then again it may just rebound the sledge and strike me. Hardened aluminum is a little more difficult to predict the outcome of, stainless steel would likely dent a bit. In no way will PVC hold up better and the colder the temperature, or older the PVC, the worse the consequences may be.

Additionally, many oils, especially the synthetic oils commonly used in larger shop air compressors, will deteriorate PVC. If your compressor is an oiled-type compressor then some oil will inevitably make it past the tank and into your air lines. The smaller the tank and/or the closer your tank's outlet to the tank's pump inlet, the greater the amount of oil that will make it through, especially during periods of high, sustained, usage.

Past good fortune is no guarantee of future good fortune. OSHA, ASME, and ANSI have no financial stake in the matter and they universally forbid the use of Rigid PVC for above-ground compressed gas distribution UNLESS it is shrouded in a suitable protective conduit. The manufacturers of rigid PVC have a real financial stake in the matter and even they universally prohibit the use of rigid PVC for compressed gas distribution UNLESS the piping was specifically manufactured for such (and operated within very strict manufacturer specifications). It is with good reason, and sad experience, that they have taken these positions!

I do wish, however, to be clear on one point: The above applies only to RIGID PVC PIPE. Soft, flexible PVC tubing and hose with interwoven reinforcement fibers (to prevent weak-wall blowout) are permissable for compressed air and are commonly used in pneumatic air hose. They can still cause property damage (mostly from whipping about) when they fail, but they will never produce dangerous shards upon damage/blowout (unlike the potential of rigid PVC).

Some Reading Material: Failure of Plastic Plumbing Products, PPFA FAQ, Amsoil's Compressor Oil Compatibility Notice, PPFA's Plumber's Apprentice Manual, OSHA Position on use of PVC for Compressed Air Use
 

Randall Kepley

New User
Randall
EP , I dont doubt anything you have said its apparent you have done a lot of research on this subject far more time than I have , my time is spent in the shop but thats neither hear nor there. My point being sure these things happen heck anything can happen but are they the norm? NO ! Every machine that is made for our industry or hobby depending on take on it come w/ guards espc the table saw and Ill bet you everyone that would tell the truth about the subject would say that the guards are removed . Why? because its a fun thing to do ? No , because in most cases they get in the way , there aggrivating and as crazy as this may sound .... you can get hurt just as bad if not worse w/ a guard because your hand / fingers can get cut just as bad trying to manuver around a guard to see what your doing where if the guard was removed the user is can completly see whats going on.. Sorry for the stray on the guard subject. My point is there are thousands of shops pro and hobby in this country running ridged PVC for there air needs day in day out and just like me have been for yrs and the yrs to come. Anything can happen but are those disasters that you keep pointing out likley to happen? Im sorry I dissagre, I think they could but not likely. I would bet you anything you would care to wager, do a study and see which is more likely to happen , a person being in a car crash in the next ten yrs or there PVC air lines failing and see which one wins. I could care less what the OP choose's to use. The question is what should he use. I chose to tell him what I use and it has served me very well and thus I will stand by what I say because these are my observations 6 days a week, these arent hearsay observations. Use what you want to but by all means .... dont step on that crack, your mom will thank you for it. R.K.
 

woodlaker2

Ray
Corporate Member
This has been a very informative discussion on a topic many of us are interested in. So thanks to those contributing. Much food for thought and as always we each have to decide what is best. For me I prefer to err on the side of safety. We all know the definition of an accident...an unplanned and unexpected event...so be safe out in the shop all!!!

I'd recommend that one one of our monitors/administrators place this in a proper forum/archive for future reference by members.

Thanks again to all.
 

BWSmith

New User
BW
Read "through" all the replys,but may have still missed this...........

We have Black iron here and don't see that changing(really like it).Reason for post is just a headsup of sorts on the lack of quality fittings coming out of China for the last few years for above pipe.Its absurd,how bad some of these fittings are........so,anyone with BI airlines.....you may want to start scroungin older US fittings for any future use.BW
 

petebucy4638

Pete
Corporate Member
Read "through" all the replys,but may have still missed this...........

We have Black iron here and don't see that changing(really like it).Reason for post is just a headsup of sorts on the lack of quality fittings coming out of China for the last few years for above pipe.Its absurd,how bad some of these fittings are........so,anyone with BI airlines.....you may want to start scroungin older US fittings for any future use.BW

Is there anything coming out of China that is worth a hoot? If there is, I have not seen it!:BangHead:

Pete
 

BWSmith

New User
BW
There is if you want to pay for it.

If you think about manufacturing on a really big scale....what country has been investing in the newest,fastest,bestest equip over the last cpl decades.A hint,it ain't the US.

The problem as it applies to OP is one of pipe fittings.Not bashing pac-rim manufacturing.There are still a few co's making fittings here.Its just the notion of runnin down to hdwre store and snaggin a "quality" Tee's and nipples seems to have vanished.We have threading equip here....so its more of a headsup.Best,BW
 

Gotcha6

Dennis
Staff member
Corporate Member
Looks like the old Danish Proverb applies here:
"He who listens to every man's advice shall build a crooked house." :gar-Bi
Being a builder by trade, I could not in all good conscience recommend to anyone the use of PVC for compressed air. Have I seen it used? Yes. But this is why I often hesitate to make comments on these issues. As a professional, there is an inherent liability to me for any counsel I may give concerning areas of my profession.
Having said that, everyone should remember that what you use in your shop is not only your choice but your responsibility - just like drinking & driving. I'd be hesitant to visit a shop with this hazard in place, but if the owner chooses to have it there, I'd also assume he was prepared to address the consequences that may incur to guests of his facility from a failure. Keep that liability insurance paid, and if they deny the claim, be assured an adversarial situation may develop from an incident. We'd hate to see anyone lose their home over $100 worth of pipe.
 

rcflyer23

New User
Kevin
thanks for all the information from everyone. I think what I have gathered from this is not matter if it will work or not I'm going to stay away from PVC. I may do pex or BI. As little as I am going to run its not probably going to make a huge difference in price. I'll have to scope things out a little more and see what the true cost difference it.

I truly appreciate everyone's input on this subject. It's great to see everyone's input and opinions, it's what makes this community great.
 

scsmith42

New User
Scott Smith
Kevin, if you go the black pipe route and you need to make a trip to the triangle, you're welcome to stop by the farm and use my pipe threading machine.

Scott
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Premier Sponsor

Our Sponsors

Top