Anyone knowledgeable about fire/bldg code for woodshops? NEED HELP

[cubicdissection]

I was tag teamed by a code inspector and fire marshall today. They walked through the warehouse (I rent the back) and before they even got to my workspace, essentially kicked me out of the building.

I've been subletting the back of the building, and was about to take the whole lease over in April. There is a small office up front (~600 SF) which is used by the tenants for sales meetings maybe 12 hours a week. I was going to continue subletting to them after I took over the lease.

According to the inspectors, because I have a woodshop, the walls of the office must be able to withstand fire for 3 hours - dispite the fact that someone could make it from the back of the office to the front door in about 10 seconds in a hurry.

Additionally, since the warehouse is about 4K square feet, they say I need a sprinkler system. My tools cover perhaps 600 square feet, the rest of the area being storage, worktables, and empty space

Both inspectors seemed to really be getting a kick out of the whole thing. One had a little smile on his face which only got bigger as I explained that the building is owned by an 87 year old man who built the place in the 40's with his father, and would very likely not be willing to spend tens of thousands of dollars on renovations. He recommended that I hire an architect to make the building safe. Guess he mistook me for Trump.

I told them that they were essentially putting me out of business, and to please excuse me as I had to go check my Quickbooks and see if I could afford to move. I was upset, but at no point rude, nor did I raise my voice. They didn't even look at my shop area or the rest of the building; they just left as if their mission were complete.

So, it looks like I'll have to spend thousands of dollars and several weeks of downtime moving my shop. At least until they stumble on me again, since nearly all the small commercial spaces I've seen that I can afford are in multi tenant buildings and do not meet their codes.

Sorry about the tone of this post; I'm absolutely livid right now. The state is in a huge budget crunch, but they have the money to send these guys out with a chip on their shoulder looking to shut down businesses. I guarantee you none of the small shops I've seen in the triangle area would meet the requirements they were rapidfire shooting at me. I'm not an idiot, I keep the place very clean, and there's no more fire hazard here than in your average residential garage.

I really need some help. First, if someone who knows about these codes could PM me I can at least see if they are full of crap or not. I've searched and searched but can't find anything online. Second, anyone know of some cheap shop space, preferably inside the beltline?

 

[JimmyC]

Eric,
I can't help you with the codes or a new place, but I can probably help you with a move if and when you need it.

Good Luck.

 

[Glennbear]

My work in the fire inspection/fire safety field took place 30 years ago in NJ so I have no relevant advice to offer but my thoughts are with you in the hope that you find a solution to this problem. :eusa_pray

 

[James Davis]

Eric,

I have never been one of those conspiracy theory folks, but this sounds like someone wants to lease the space you have there and figured they could get it empty by having the city pay you a visit. I deal with code officers and Fire Marshall's on a regular basis and find that they can and do, do as they darn well pleased. I know it is a pain to move, but if they are already coming after you like this you may as well give the space up. If you push them they will only find more and more ways to make your life h___. I have been trying to get a final on a building for the past 6 weeks and the only hang up was the Fire Marshall. He had a number (water pressure) in his head that was impossible for the system to maintain but he said that if we could not produce this pressure then he would not sign off on the system. After 6 weeks of delays, he finally took a look at the water flow calculations that we had been trying to show him all along and said that everything was OK and signed off today.

Good luck with the search and the move,

James

 

[emtffkev]

I may be wrong so take this with a grain of salt, but...

In my experiences working in Emergency Services I have taken a few classes on fire code. Although I have some basic knowledge I am by no means an expert.

If you are legally leasing the portion of the warehouse (with a leasing contract and such) the leaser can be made to bring the portion you are leasing up to current fire code. You can also be made to bring the building up to code during a change in ownership (like you purchasing the building or taking over the lease).

Now as far as the code goes I'm not 100% familiar with Raleigh's, but there is usually a square footage requirement that decides whether or not the building needs to be sprinkled. Also, are you sure that they said the wall had to be rated for 3 hours? Typically it's a 1 hour rating and that can be obtained with 5/8" Type X drywall.

I know a couple of the local fire marshals and see them routinely at work. I will try and run into one of them and see what I can find out for your situation and if they have any tips that may save you a lot of headache later.

-Kevin

 

[cubicdissection]

Thanks for all the support guys. I couldn't believe my ears when they showed up. I thought they might tell me to get rid of a couple of the extension cords and check the extinguishers. Boy was I wrong!

I don't think anyone's trying to push me out...I know the owner of the building, and he's very friendly and nice to me. In fact, he specifically wanted my current landlord out, and me to take the lease over, since the guy I rent from is frequently behind on the rent. When we first met up we sat there jawin about the military for a while, and he showed me a picture of himself in Okinawa taken way back in the black and white days. By the same token, I'm not about to try to force him to make improvements on the place in excess of reason.

That 3 hour fire rating sounded like a load of BS to me too. I think these guys are for whatever reason interpreting the code as strict as possible. Maybe their coffee was bad that morning...who knows. The fact that they can have a bad day and ruin my month....grr, makes the blood boil. Glad I don't have business debt to service or this could put me under. You'd think that the way the economy is they wouldn't be looking to close the doors of more small businesses / employers, but I guess no one sent them the memo.

I guess I'll call the owner and see if he got through to the inspector. He said he would sic his lawyer on them if necessary. Kind words but I don't have a lot of hope, and will be looking around for a place to move I guess.

 

[Gotcha6]

Since the firefighters' fatalaties in Salisbury last year, many departments are lowering the boom on WWing related operations. It's a typical kneejerk reaction most regulatory or inspection related agencies take when their associates' complacency on given issues results in such a catastrophe, particularly when it causes a fatality - and especially when it is within their own ranks. One of our suppliers says he is under constant scrutiny and criticism by the Fire Marshal at his shop about dust and vapor control even though he is certified by OSHA with regards to both issues. I hope you can find a solution.

 

[Bigdog72]

Solutions will not be easy to come by because these guys operate with impunity. The fire ratings for walls depend on the fire zone you are in. Most of the downtown areas in small to medium cities such as Raleigh require that there be 3 hour separation walls between businesses or residences. There is no such thing as getting "grandfathered" in because the building was built before the current codes and ordinances were put into effect. The improvements generally fall to the business that is using the space. In other words, you are basically screwed. There are avenues of appeal through the Dept of Insurance (good luck!). The best approach would be to try and set up a meeting with the code official at their offices. Ask for a clarification of the code and ask for specific section numbers. Then go away with this info and get with a builder or someone who knows the code and look for a loophole.

 

[CaptnA]

The short of it is, they are doing their job. I know many fire marshals from many counties across the state. In a lot of places fire fighters do company inspections, in others fire marshals do them. Sometimes both or either. It varies. Most do their jobs fairly and have no reason to do otherwise. The state fire code is tough.The building and electrical codes are just as tough and each may be brought in by any of the others. I've walked in and had to call an electrical inspector before I even got through the doors. The electrical was cut within the hour and the business was forced to relocate. I hated it, but safety was seriously compromised through an illegal electrical installation. The owner protested but admitted he himself had been shocked that very morning. What do ya do?
Since the Imperial chicken processing fire in Hamlet years ago the state mandated that every municipality conduct regular fire inspections on every commercial occupancy. Period. The state enacted legislation that allows the municipality to recoup the cost by charging for the inspections. We often get odd looks when we appear out of the blue and inform a business owner that we are there to do an inspection they probably don't want, and they are going to pay us to do it. We can literally shut their business down, and /or force them to correct expensive violations. Their recourse is limited. Fix it or have their co (certificate of occupancy) revoked.
Sound harsh? It is. I will tell you that the intent is NOT to cause hardship. In Hamlet some workers were literally locked behind chained doors inside a building that was substandard and hazardous and were unable to escape when the fire started. Many lives senselessly lost. In Worcester Mass, 6 firemen were killed in a warehouse fire that they were not familiar with and had many hazards, some of which had been reported but unrepaired. Inspections and preplans are good for firefighters and citizens as well as others. Most business owners consider it a cost of business.
I assure you the municipality does NOT want you shut down. To lose business is to lose revenue. Not good for them. Not good for you.
If you really think they were inappropriate there is a way for you to have someone talk with you about it. Everyone has a boss.
It would be hard to speak about particulars of your inspection but from the sounds of it, except for some questionable public relations aspects they were probably right on by the code. Certain occupancies - such as woodworking businesses are inherently hazardous. Wood working because of the flammability of the materials used and the finish used and the dust produced call for different circumstances say than a pottery would.
If I can help or offer anything else please drop a pm and I'll be glad to try and help.

 

[MikeL]

Eric, I am sorry to hear about the results of your inspection. It has been too long since I have dealt with the commercial building code, but here is the link to the online version and contact information: http://www.ncdoi.com/OSFM/Engineering/engineering_home.asp. The code book is not easy to navigate or interpret, but maybe a fellow member who is more familiar with it can point you to the relevant sections. If you have to relocate, I can help as well. Good luck.

 

[Outa Square]

I have some experience in fire/bldg area but not in Wake County; even though it is the same code used across the state; there are appendixes, local amendments, and local interpretations that make it appear different from one department to the next. In the county that i am most familiar with, the occupant, which includes the lessee and any sub-lessee must have a certificate of occupancy and that process is required prior to occupancy. The process identifies requirements that must be met and addresses them prior to occupying the building; however if someone occupies the building without going through the process then is "discovered" they still have to go through the process. I know governmental regulation is not always seen as good thing or a necessity; but it is something that exist and unfortunately adds to the cost of doing business. No offense to you or anyone here, i just have experience on the other side so to speak.

I would encourage you to speak to someone at the building inspections office; fire marshall's office; or anybody that will give you information, even if it is who to talk with. The city/county planning or economic development office can some time help. Find out what the issues are and what you need to do to occupy the structure. Ask specifically about the rehab code which allows for more flexibility in older structures. Just getting a response that an architect or design professional is needed isn't good enough, as you need to know the scope of the issue so you can get quotes from architects or design professionals; as quotes will vary significantly from one to another these days.

I hope this helps

 

[cubicdissection]

Well, I showed up this morning and the owner of the building was waiting for me. Basically told me don't worry about it; he's going to ask for a full report and hand it over to his law firm. If it comes down to it, he will take responsibility for the repairs, and if the repairs are way out of line, he won't hold me to the lease.

I appreciate thay they were just "doing their job", but they threw the book at the place with no consideration of the circumstances. There's nobody locked behind chain link fences here. If a fire were to break out there are no less than four exits to the place. Blanket application of overstringent policies sure does create a lot of gubernmint jobs...while the rest of us who create products and services get to pay their salaries (and health benefits, which are undoubtedly more comprehensive than I can afford).

The other half of the building is full of art studios; they run a kiln and other equipment. Inspector said they were "artists" and that I'm a "manufacturer". I make perhaps 200 puzzles a month, and my yearly output would fit in the back of a pickup truck. There's not a speck of sawdust in the place since I have the guys keep it very clean. They say the 300 or so BF of lumber I store is a fire hazard, yet when my eyes wander to the ceiling I see 4x10's spaced at 16 inches with solid pine overlay. More lumber in the roof than I use in a decade, but I'm the fire hazard?

Anyway, I guess we'll see what happens, and in the meantime I'll reserve a chunk of cash to move at a moment's notice. This thing kept me up all night. Bet the inspector slept like a baby. :evil3:

 

[JimmyC]

" Calling it your job don't make it right Boss"

Yes they followed the codes and the laws, yada yada,yada. But it's not what they did, but how they did it. It always amazes me how people with "power" in gubment positions complain how they get no respect, when they do this with a gleam in there eye. I can't see how anybody can defend someone that behaves that way. It makes me happy that I have a detached shop on my property, and I'm in the "county".

Good luck Eric, and once again if you need to relocate I can help.

 

[cubicdissection]

Yup, finding a barn out on unincorporated land is my next move. Don't want to do it though, as it will change my commute from 4 minutes to 1/2 hour or more.

 

[nelsone]

You should consider calling the local news station! I wonder what would happen if your story were made public!:dontknow:

Of course, I guess it could backfire, but it really sounds like these guys were our of line!

 

[Jim Kunzweiler]

Sorry to hear about your troubles Eric, I follow your forum at cubicdissection. I noticed you said in an earlier post that the fire marshal didn't seem at all concerned with the "artist" next door....maybe that should be your strategy when and if you have to relocate. A little "marquetry" on a puzzle box and a shop that is now a "studio" might just make you an artist in wood.

 

[Dudelive]

I wish you good luck and keep a cool head at times like these, yeah it is tough when your feathers get all ruffled.

In the above post #6 you made reference to a former tenant that the owner had or has which ever it is. There is a real good chance that former employees can and sometimes cause problems out of spite, not that I am saying he or she has but....... So that leads you to maybe a solution as has been mentioned above. Find out what it will take to be able to stay where you are. It is easier to stay and solve a problem than to walk away from it. Right now it may seem like the best thing is move and heck with it, but there may be other things that have been complained about to inspectors so as to cause problems. As has been mentioned above talk to them at their office and look for solutions not solution , there is always more than one solution to any problem, the question is what will they allow.

You can get more flies with honey than with salt.

Good Luck

 

[wildbill1943]

I have had some experience with " stringent interpretation" of fire codes. Maybe this will help. The principal of an elementary school in Alamance County had a fire inspector tell him that hornet's nest he had hanging from the ceiling in the library ( which had been there for more than 25 years) were a fire hazard and would have to be taken down. The principal smiled, and said" certainly, as soon as you bring me a copy of the code or law that says it is illegal or dangerous in this environment". This was 15 years ago and the nests are still there even after two new principals have been there since he retired. Sometimes smiling and asking for proof woeks.