Where's the dust????? (UPDATE)

[SteveColes]

I don't have the time anymore to read all the threads, so I didn't see this until one of the moderators mentioned that he had closed the thread.

This is and was a great thread and I would like to keep it open becuase there is a lot of great info that was presented. While this debate was civil by the standards of some other websites, it stepped over our lines several times. I am going to reread the thread again. If I can, I will either edit or delete the posts that either caused the nasty drift and any that reference to them or are ones that are direct responses. If I can do this successfully, then I will re-open the thread.

Phil, I want to thank you for coming on the site and really hope you will stay. You have a lot of good information and will be a great addition to our community even if you are "cheese head".:rotflm::rotflm:Your system has a lot followers and I for one am very interested it, if I ever get into the shop again.:gar-Bi

Alan, I understand where you are coming from. BP's system has many followers and some good engineering behind it.

But to both of you, I say "chill". There are many ways to skin a cat and not everyone's goals are the same.

 

[Glennbear]

Thanks for reopening the thread Steve, I too found the info presented useful since I am just starting on dust collection piping etc. I was going to be super safe and make gloveboxes surrounding each of my machines but the cost of plexiglass for enclosures would be more than I paid for my house :rotflm: Shortly I will be posting pictures of my shop built DUSTINATOR 1000 which some may find interesting or at least comical :wink_smil

 

[Travis Porter]

Re: Where's the dust?????

Don't forget the noise. IMO, my cyclone is two to three times louder than the Jet DC-1200 I used to have.

 

[Bigdog72]

My shop is 16x24 and I have a 2HP DC with canister, the Thein baffle seperator, a JDS air filter and, soon, a shop built squirrel fan air cleaner. I have a 24" fan moving air and a box fan with a filter exhausting air when I can open the doors. I even wore a respirator for a short time yesterday. I think I have all avenues covered. I certainly hope so!!:eusa_thin:eusa_thin

 

[skysharks]

Wow can you guys believe this????:embaresse
Talk about a discussion. But please keep it nice,ccasion1 like Steve said there is a lot of good info being presented here.
All I did was to make a post:XXcompute on a niffy dust separator that I thought was cool and fairly easy to make.
Which system is better I don't know cause I have absolutely no experience with a Cyclone.
I will say this that the separator that I built is still depositing fines/Dust into my filter.
I really found this out when I cleaned up the Bandsaw, after re sawing (2) 2" x 10" x 8'. I then had to sand them smooth with 80 grit and then 120 grit. So the sanding dust on the shop table also got collected.

By comparison the separator did have over 90% of the pickup in it. There was enough that made it to the shop vac and filter that when taken out and tapped on the side that was easily seen to be coating the filter.
There was also a very small smear about the size of a half dollar bill of fine dust at the bottom of the shop vac.

Which leaves one to think "hey this filter will be reduced in efficiency shortly":icon_scra Maybe not as soon as without it but it still will.:eusa_thin

I don't know maybe I'm asking to much of a DC unit. or being to picky.:eusa_thin:eusa_thin

It is allot better than what I started out with that is for sure.
I have a tendency that when I start something I have expectations/perceptions of it. I strive to achieve what "I think" it should look like/do/perform etc.
Right now I am not sure of what I should expect or can get with out going way overboard. Some would look at what I have done and say that I already have.:rotflm:

 

[SteveColes]

Mac, this is my take on this whole thing. Is your situation better than it was? If so then your ahead of the game. Is it ideal? I doubt it.

I know that I will try Phil's design. I also know that I will still have to use a mask or even respirator in many situations. And I will have the JDS running when I am in the shop. But I suspect that would be the case no matter what.

Phil made a point that my limited personal experience says is true. Sorry Phil, if I am paraphrasing and perhaps stating it stronger than you would.

The most important part of DC is really the design of the "pick up". Phil used as his example a blade cover on the TS. I would use the example of a festool sander against almost any other sander, even with the same shop vac on both.

On the other hand, would I like a powerful cyclone with hard piping to all of my machines. YES. And only 2 things have to happen for me to do this. One I have to start working in the shop again and the stock market has to rebound enough.:rotflm:

Wow can you guys believe this????:embaresse
Talk about a discussion. But please keep it nice,ccasion1 like Steve said there is a lot of good info being presented here.
All I did was to make a post:XXcompute on a niffy dust separator that I thought was cool and fairly easy to make.
Which system is better I don't know cause I have absolutely no experience with a Cyclone.
I will say this that the separator that I built is still depositing fines/Dust into my filter.
I really found this out when I cleaned up the Bandsaw, after re sawing (2) 2" x 10" x 8'. I then had to sand them smooth with 80 grit and then 120 grit. So the sanding dust on the shop table also got collected.

By comparison the separator did have over 90% of the pickup in it. There was enough that made it to the shop vac and filter that when taken out and tapped on the side that was easily seen to be coating the filter.
There was also a very small smear about the size of a half dollar bill of fine dust at the bottom of the shop vac.

Which leaves one to think "hey this filter will be reduced in efficiency shortly":icon_scra Maybe not as soon as without it but it still will.:eusa_thin

I don't know maybe I'm asking to much of a DC unit. or being to picky.:eusa_thin:eusa_thin

It is allot better than what I started out with that is for sure.
I have a tendency that when I start something I have expectations/perceptions of it. I strive to achieve what "I think" it should look like/do/perform etc.
Right now I am not sure of what I should expect or can get with out going way overboard. Some would look at what I have done and say that I already have.:rotflm:

 

[Phil Thien]

John and Steve, perhaps if I provide some background on the baffle you'll understand how I originally envisioned using it (at least on a shop vac).

When I was using only a shop vac on my jointer/planer, table saw, router table, etc., I discovered that the filters plugged very quickly.

The solution found on many forums was to install bags in the shop vac. Doing so certainly took care of plugged filter problem, but those bags are EXPENSIVE and a hassle to change.

So then I decided to start experimenting with separators. After coming up with a solution that I thought excelled, I was still of the opinion that it made sense to keep the bag in the shop vac. YES, the separator keeps the filter cleaner, longer. But nothing separates 100%, and using a bag in the vac gets whatever the separator misses.

FWIW, I have two pics from the March/April 2008 issue of Power Woodworking. That issue had a review of the Dust Deputy from Oneida. The pictures show the bottom of a DD bin and the bottom of the shop vac powering it after a little use. You can tell from the picture that there isn't much dust in the bottom of the DD bin, and there is already a decent-sizes swoosh on the bottom of the vac barrel.

So nothing (including a baffle-equipped separator or a true cyclone) gets it all. The trick is to find a compromise you're happy with. They're all compromises. You just have to pick one.

 

[Travis Porter]

IMO something is better than nothing. You can always improve upon something but when you have nothing you can't improve it. For many years I didn't use a collector at all. I would plane several hundred board feet and swep it up. Now I just overfill the drum on my collector and have to unstop it. :-(

Mac, not sure what you are doing for piping, but if you want to incorporate additional improvements for minimal costs use pipe with the proper radius elbows and styles of joints. Back when I had my Jet I started out with metal HVAC fittings thinking it wouldn't hurt it that much. I was amazed at the improvement in performance of switching out two elows and minimizing flex pipe. I could feel the difference just by sticking my hand in front of the pipe.

JMTCW

Wow can you guys believe this????:embaresse
Talk about a discussion. But please keep it nice,ccasion1 like Steve said there is a lot of good info being presented here.
All I did was to make a post:XXcompute on a niffy dust separator that I thought was cool and fairly easy to make.
Which system is better I don't know cause I have absolutely no experience with a Cyclone.
I will say this that the separator that I built is still depositing fines/Dust into my filter.
I really found this out when I cleaned up the Bandsaw, after re sawing (2) 2" x 10" x 8'. I then had to sand them smooth with 80 grit and then 120 grit. So the sanding dust on the shop table also got collected.

By comparison the separator did have over 90% of the pickup in it. There was enough that made it to the shop vac and filter that when taken out and tapped on the side that was easily seen to be coating the filter.
There was also a very small smear about the size of a half dollar bill of fine dust at the bottom of the shop vac.

Which leaves one to think "hey this filter will be reduced in efficiency shortly":icon_scra Maybe not as soon as without it but it still will.:eusa_thin

I don't know maybe I'm asking to much of a DC unit. or being to picky.:eusa_thin:eusa_thin

It is allot better than what I started out with that is for sure.
I have a tendency that when I start something I have expectations/perceptions of it. I strive to achieve what "I think" it should look like/do/perform etc.
Right now I am not sure of what I should expect or can get with out going way overboard. Some would look at what I have done and say that I already have.:rotflm:

 

[RayH]

Mac,

Thanks for starting this thread. It made me get around to building a 4" version on a 32 gallon can.:tool: The silicone is still curing so I have not tried it out. It did, nowever, give me a reason to try and clean up the dust collector I'm driving it with.

That brings up my question: Anyone have a reasonable way to clean the filter bag on a Delta 50-760? Short, that is of buying a new one?:help:

Thanks,

 

[skysharks]

I threw my back out yesterday.
Dr. got me either sitting or laying flat on my back for a few days.
So as soon as I can get back into the shop I will take a picture of my piping system (it's 4" s&d) and post it.
It's not really that big.
I use the HF dust collector (now with separator) for the planers, table saw and jointer.
The shop Vac (now with separator) I use to clean up the floor and work areas.

 

[skysharks]

That metal can that is in the pic is more like what I need.
Using the 30 gal metal trash can from lowe's, I am sucking dents into the sides of it at the slightest hint of plugging the inlet.(got the word out trying to fine a fiber drum)
I did try installing a wooden gusset ring around the outside of the can and screwing it to the can from the inside out. However it still flexes enough that I wonder over time the metal fatigue will introduce holes.
Thanks for that statement about the compromise, that made sense.

 

[Travis Porter]

I quit using the dust collector for floors. I had floor sweeps, but it was nice to use the dust collector stuff as compost or mulch which I won't do if I was using floor sweeps. To big of a chance to get nails, screws, etc along with plain old garbage in the mix.

Good luck on the back. I have been there once and never want to be there again!

 

[McRabbet]

I'm glad that this thread has reopened, because there indeed is room for multiple type of dust collection in a woodworking shop. As Steve Coles put it in his first post here

[Phil] Your system has a lot followers and I for one am very interested it, if I ever get into the shop again.:gar-Bi

Alan, I understand where you are coming from. BP's system has many followers and some good engineering behind it.

I have 40+ years of experience in woodworking and know that the best solution to dust collection is to capture it at the source. But there will never be a day that I put a connection from my Porter-Cable 5" Random Orbital Sander to my ClearVue Cyclone! I have learned that the ROS makes lots of fine dust and my ShopVac with DryWall Filter Bags and a HEPA filter (or more recently, my ClearVue Mini Cyclone and ShopVac combination) will remove it from the SOURCE and not exhaust it back into my workspace. I built a Chip Separator (plan from ShopNotes Vol 55, pp 16-23) about five years ago that sits in line between my Planer, Jointer or Tablesaw and the suction side of my Dust Collector that is located outside my workshop (in the crawl space below my shop). Here it is and it has served me well in conjunction with a small 1 HP Penn State DC (a "dust pump" if it were in my shop, to use a BP term!).

At the end of the back hose beyond my tablesaw, you can see the fitting where the 4" dust goes down through the floor. This separator unit does two things for me -- it removes about 85% of the coarser solids generated from these tools, and it greatly reduces the number of times I need to go into my crawl space to empty the 25-30 gallon collection bag on the Penn State DC.

As I said earlier in this thread, I am installing a ClearVue CV1800 Cyclone in that same crawl space to replace the small Penn State DC unit which just does not have the airflow nor static pressure values sufficient to draw all of the fine dust from most of my larger power tools. I am replacing all of my 4" ductwork with 6" PVC ductwork (S&D D2729), but I also plan on building a 6" inlet version of the Phil Thien Baffle Separator to do exactly what my current separator does now -- get a high percentage of the coarse solids out of the air stream headed to the Cyclone. In the process, I will also add an overhead shroud above my tablesaw based on a Penn State Hood for their system:

found here for about $25 (I plan to replace the 2-1/2" pickup with a 4" pickup). As I said at the outset -- Capture Dust at the Source and don't let it back into your workspace. Initially, my ClearVue will exhaust its blower air directly outdoors as I am not adding filters -- yet. If I find that I remove too much conditioned air from my shop and it gets bloody cold in the winter, then I will route the blower air to a pair of 0.5 micron 9L300BL Wynn Environmental filters in the workshop to remove the very finest dust from the cyclone exhaust.

Sorry to be so long winded, but I wanted to stress that there is room for both types of dust collection. All of us need to be prudent in making certain that we use the best choices for collection at the source and to use the best filtration or elimination schemes to insure that the most dangerous fine dust particles do not return to our breathing zone. For those of you that have DC's in your shop, I suggest you look seriously at the filters from Wynn to cut down the micron-sized dust.

 

[Jon]

Another solution might be like what I have done also. I put my Dc in a closet and its sealed with some filters so air can still flow but no fine dust gets into my shop.