Trustworthy Measurement Tools

[tvrgeek]

I really appreciate the perspectives here.

@tvrgeek the framing square I bought was plastic so I don't think it'll adjust itself

I'll keep an eye out for the brands listed here, the same ones seem to be coming up over and over, so that's good.

I feel like I need a masterclass *just in measuring*. (First lesson, don't forget the width of the saw blade!)

Thanks for all these great suggestions yall!

Plastic framing square? Are you sure you don't mean a speed square? One of the triangle things? A framing square is a big "L". I have never seen a plastic one. Steel or aluminum.

On precision. It matters if you are doing picture frames, cabinet face frames, doors, any good hand joinery. My dovetails improved tenfold when I switched from pencils to marking knives. A few thou across a drawer side matters. When I trim to fit with a plane or Lyon trimmer, I am trimming to a few thou. Too much precision never screwed up a project, but it can be slower and harder on the pocketbook.

I don't use scales on squares. Lines are too thick. So is that two and 1/32 to which side of the mark?
You can get sets of very good stainless rulers, inch or metric, off Amazon for chump change. Thin lines, good etching, not too thick for parallax errors. Scales on speed squares and framing squares are for cutting rafter tails, not cabinetry.

Yes, a huge amount of frustration comes from not having a class in marking. I was self taught until U-tube and gad did it cause me issues. I hope to take a class or so now I am retired. I am sure I have many more bad habits. One is measuring rather than marking from the mating piece.

 

[castiger04]

PEC blems from taytools.com. Reasonable measurement tools at a discount due to cosmetic defects. Sufficient for wood working and made in USA.

 

[Oka]

Speed squares whether steel, plastic or aluminum are not for precision woodworking per se. They were designed for carpenters to use for framing primarily. If you are familiar with the one you have and it is not a junky cheapo, you can use one and get an accuracy of between 1/16-1/32. I have used one most my life and have had little issues with its intended purpose. However, they are not for high end wood working. TVRGeek does make a good point in understanding how to mark correctly, using a knife instead of a pencil. That said, the other thing that is essential is knowing how to set the cutting edge of the saw or chisel so it does not cut into the marked line.
Another thing is understanding the reaction of the blade in cutting the wood varies from soft to hard wood.
To me, the biggest issue that contributes to poor execution is impatience and not focusing on trying to be accurate before you cut, not after.

 

[TheyCallMeTex]

@tvrgeek, yes a orange plastic speed square from HD.

I feel like I'm missing some rudiments... @tvrgeek or @Oka can yall suggest a good youtube video/course on measuring and marking?

 

[AlanJ]

Even though I have a lot of options I grab my grandfathers Starrett combination square for most work. Forged not cast. So I don’t have to worry as much as their less expensive squares. If I some day drop it and it cracks I’ll know I was mistaken about it being forged. It was a present from my father to his father at the end of the Korean War. I inherited it in 1972 And it’s still in almost new condition despite many decades of use.

 

[tvrgeek]

Many of the videos from folks like Sellers, Cosman, Wright, Stumpy Nubs have tips on measuring and marking. Trustworthy sources, which I can't say about a lot of Y-tubes I have seen. Below are framing, combination, machinist, speed and try squares.

 

[tvrgeek]

Ben, might I suggest you try and make a Raleigh lunch some time. Meet a few folks and maybe someone will give you a quick lesson in their shop and show you their tools and methods. We all probably do things a little differently, some to good effect, some not.

 

[TheyCallMeTex]

Ben, might I suggest you try and make a Raleigh lunch some time. Meet a few folks and maybe someone will give you a quick lesson in their shop and show you their tools and methods. We all probably do things a little differently, some to good effect, some not.

That's a fantastic idea, I'm glad that there's that much hospitality here. I've found a few courses at a place in town called "The Maker's Space", and I've been watching a lot of YouTube, but mostly I figure I have to build a lot of crooked boxes and wobbly tables so I've been trying to build as much as I can.

I also appreciate the education on the various types of right angles! The...ahem...machinist's square I bought recently seems to be a pretty good tool, but I've retired the speed square for now.

 

[charlessenf]

Much to my chagrin, the orange, plastic carpentry square I bought for a few bucks at Home Depot is quite off. (I bet yall are surprised!)

I'm new to the craft, and would love some advice here.

What measurement tools do yall trust?

Return it - they'll swap out for a square square!

ALVIN Professional Acrylic Triangles​

 

[Oka]

The only speed square that is decent you can get from a big box imho is the Milwaukee speed square. I have a couple and the 90° and 45° are accurate. But then, I do not use it for angle or measuring. I use it for a scribing guide and a reference 90° only.

 

[tvrgeek]

Return it - they'll swap out for a square square!

ALVIN Professional Acrylic Triangles​

Never heard of Alvin. Mine are all old Post.
I finally got one of these for my accurate 45. Not used to it yet. If one searches they do come in imperial measures, but most are metric.
Sometimes I wonder why I don't convert in the shop.

 

[chris_goris]

Never heard of Alvin. Mine are all old Post.
I finally got one of these for my accurate 45. Not used to it yet. If one searches they do come in imperial measures, but most are metric.
Sometimes I wonder why I don't convert in the shop.

Alvin (used to) make(s) drafting supplies. I say used to because this clearly is not for drafting and Im not sure if there is a business anymore for manual drafting

 

[tvrgeek]

Let's back up. Nothing is more accurate than reality. Until about 100 years ago, all one had was a square, story stick, and pinch rod. You measured great distances with three poles. Measured flats with winding sticks. Measured level with water. Vertical with a plumb bob. Marked strait lines with a chalk line. ( Ancient Egyptians used berry juice for the pyramids, not chalk). Dividers transferred measurements and could "divide" or multiply distances. Compasses marked round and with a square, could divide angles. None of these needed inch, mm, angstrom, degrees, or length of the Kings finger to nose.

It pays to look back and understand measurement. Now, I have no problem with modern tools. Just laid out where a new wall needs to be for a tub alcove and used my nifty laser. Strait and level, really easy. But it is really nothing but a plumb bob and square. Just quicker.

"Right"... What's a cubit?"
B.C.

 

[tvrgeek]

Alvin (used to) make(s) drafting supplies. I say used to because this clearly is not for drafting and Im not sure if there is a business anymore for manual drafting

Only us old guys who remember how. I have to admit, before I moved to clear out stuff, I sold my T-square. I still have my drafting board from High School as someday I'll need a nice flat bit of wood. Glad to see the back of ruling pens and even rapidioraphs. I wish I still had my lead pointer and holders though.

I liked the original Quick Cad, but everything got more complex so I don't use and CAD for drafting. just manual sketches. I di use a pile of CAD tools for speaker and circuit design. LTSpice is more than fantastic!.

 

[tvrgeek]

Tex,
There is a brand new Paul Sellers video on marking.

 

[ssmith]

Some of you may be interested to know there’s a field dedicated to precision measurements called metrology. Woodworking measurements are usually pretty rough – the most accurate tool most of us use is a good dial caliper, which is accurate to about 0.001”. While a lot of people consider that pretty accurate, there is commercial measurement equipment out there that can measure up to 130 feet, to an accuracy of roughly 50 millionths of an inch.

While that’s great if you’re building a plane or the space shuttle, as pointed out above, accuracy beyond a certain point doesn’t help us since wood isn’t a very stable material. Still, there are some best practices new woodworkers may find useful;

• Start with good quality tools, particularly those you use to set up jointers, saws, etc. In particular, machinist squares from reputable manufacturers will specify how accurate they are over their length; good calipers will specify a dimensional accuracy. If they don’t list specifications, what you will get is a crapshoot.
• Take the time to properly align and set up your equipment.
• Learn best construction practices and techniques from others. For me, I usually start a project with certain target dimensions, but tight joints and flat joinery depend at least as much on technique and detail work as the measurements I started with. An example of that I learned here – when gluing up boards into panels, alternate the faces against the jointer* fence to cancel out errors in the fence angle. That keeps the panel flat. There’s a wealth of information just like that here and elsewhere that can make a huge difference in the outcome.

 

[tvrgeek]

I offer that tight joints rely on MARKING more than measuring to a standard, and .001 matters.
I agree with Scott though, technique and clever matter. But it sure helps if you can trust your try square.

 

[TheyCallMeTex]

Tex,
There is a brand new Paul Sellers video on marking.

Just watched it last night It showed up in my YouTube recs, probably based on the number of google searches I've been doing.

 

[Chris C]

Look around... Vintage tools are not hard to find. I picked up this Millers Falls protractor head combination square today for $25. Quality made in the USA probably 80 years or more ago. Hard to imagine how heavy it is and how smooth it operates all these years later.

 

[Rob01]

I'm late to the party, but I've had good luck with PEC. Taytools sells a wide range of their blemished tools at a good discount. USA made and their claim is that the blemishes are cosmetic only. They also carry blems in Benchmark Tools but have no experience with them. I've got a 2" and 4" engineer square, a 12" combination square, a 6" ruler, a 36" flexible ruler, a 6" double square and one more that escapes me right now. The engineer's squares aren't blems but all the others are and all have been square except the 12" combination square which is off a minute amount.... I just haven't taken the time to adjust it to square.
https://taytools.com/collections/tools-blemished-cosmetic-seconds