Thread got me thinking

[Mike Davis]

So, I have donated my time, materials and provided lunch for some fellow members for free in sharpening workshops with more scheduled. Yes, they had some expense in driving to my home and using their time, but may have done that anyway.

My quandary is that some folks charge from $50 to $100 for classes and I do it for free. Am I taking money from them or preventing them from making money? They are professional teachers, established schools and or respected authors. I'm just an old country boy who figured out some things that work and want to help my fellow craftsmen work easier. Do I cheapen their work somehow?

You get what you pay for, there's no value in a free class or a free lunch... You couldn't possibly learn anything from an uneducated hick. But am I dishonest?

 

[ScottM]

Mike, I look at it this way. You are an active member of a non-profit organization who's mission is to promote wood working and provide educational opportunities to wood workers in NC and surrounding states. Any time one of our members helps another wood worker it helps fulfill that mission. This organization is special because of members like you who are willing to share your time and talents.

 

[MarkE]

Mike. I see nothing in what you are doing that could ever be considered dishonest. You are providing a good and valuable service to this community.

I also don't think that you are taking anything away from those that teach for pay. Many people on this site provide tips and tricks for all kinds of wood working related subjects. You are just providing that same service with a hands on approach.

I am one that probably would never pay to take a sharpening class, preferring to use the internet to glean my information and experiment. But, if I were closer to you I would definitely have taken advantage of your free seminar. Not just for the instruction, but also to meet with members of this site, (And a free lunch is always good)

I say keep up the good work.

 

[FredP]

I have a rule that applies here. friends is friends and business is business. My shop is part of the way I earn a living. There are times when I donate items or time to help fellow woodworkers. This is how I contribute to the site as I dont have the cash to donate. However there are times when I am asked to build something or go to a members house to work. This is business. I hate charging members here but I do have to earn a living. I give a discount to members because I think of them as friends and it makes charging them easier. BTW I think charging for your sharpening classes should not be free. That is your choice but I would at least try to balance the costs so to speak. I would recoup the costs and donate the time. I stayed out of that other thread for a reason....... after your visit I didnt feel the need for a worksharp!:icon_thum:icon_thum

 

[Mike Davis]

In the spirit of full disclosure I must say that I did receive some things from members in the past and at the workshops.

I have gotten a lot of help moving. I guess I could have rented a big truck and hired two guys to do it, but we didn't have everything lined up properly and packing was minimal. Moving everything in a day would have been an unbearable physical strain on my wife and me.

I really do appreciate all the help we get from friends and want to pay it forward. I also gave away some tools, furniture, a trailer, some lumber and other things as we moved.

I still plan to have a picnic/BBQ/get together at our newer home for our friends here.

And I feel like I don't do enough to help the site for all I have learned and received through my association here.

 

[Glennbear]

You have some knowledge of sharpening methods that work and you desire to share it. Nothing dishonest there, actually it is rather admirable when far too many have their entire lives driven by chasing the almighty dollar. Are you competing with those who have tuition schools ? Perhaps to a small degree but even if you were to charge you would still be competing so I see no reason for guilt. I am sure there are others like me whose current financial situation precludes paying tuition but would benefit from a class given by a friend with no detriment to those who teach for cash since I could not afford their class anyway.:wsmile:

 

[Bill Clemmons]

I have gotten a lot of help moving. I guess I could have rented a big truck and hired two guys to do it, but we didn't have everything lined up properly and packing was minimal. Moving everything in a day would have been an unbearable physical strain on my wife and me.

Let's put the shoe on the other foot. I suppose UHaul or those two guys you didn't hire could complain that we lessened their value or took food off their table by helping you for free. But that's certainly not why any of us did it. We did it because we had the means (trucks, strong backs, weak minds, trailers, dollys, etc.) and a friend/fellow NCWWer needed our help. End of story. Not everything we do in life has to be about "what's in it for me". Personally, I helped you and Pam move because it gave me pleasure to do so: I suspect you offer to teach others to sharpen for the same reason. :icon_thum

Bill

 

[LeftyTom]

Nothing dishonest about putting on a free workshop, whether it be sharpening, shaving horses, or turning.

It even helps the pro's who teach classes as well. If one learns from your workshop (or any other function) that they can indeed do something they thought beyond their ability, then they may very well choose to attend a pro's class to expand their knowledge.

Now whether they come from the pro's class with more ability and knowledge than they had before the class? This depends on the pro instructor. :dontknow:

Disclosure: I have helped Mike move on one occasion, and I have been to his place for tutoring on turning and another time for building a shaving horse.

I think of things like helping a member move is a way I can "pay it forward." Other than that, I try to get in on all the raffles, though I failed to order any calendars for 2011.

 

[Mark Anderson]

the most important leson you have taught members here is the lesson of "paying it forward", how can you charge for that.

 

[jmauldin]

Mike,
I think what you are doing is commendable and of great value to those who attend. We have all learned something - besides getting together with friends and having a good time. I know I have. I do feel, though, that the free lunch is not necessary. We can and should either pay something, bring something, or take you out for a treat. Whether you charge something for the class or not is immaterial. We could all donate something for your time and utilities. You certainly should not feel guilty. You are doing what you do because you like to do it - that is your nature. We helped you move for the same reason. You are a very GOOD FRIEND.
Jim in Mayberry

 

[dlrion]

I have thought about this all day, and I will tell you that as a bit of a "Newbie" I take advantage of free learning A LOT!

I simply don't have the schedule or the budget to pay for classes sometimes. But I have spent lots of time at Charlie's, Earl's, Mark's and lately James'. It is a fact that I would not be doing as well as I am without help from some people - isn't this the REASON for having a club like this?

I can only tell you what I tell all of these great guys,




---- There is no way I can ever repay you, but I can pass it on someday. ----

 

[drw]

Mike, I have learned some valuable lessons from fellow NCWWers, who have been kind enough to share their knowledge and experiences with me. I think this willingness to help each other is a virtue that sets this organization apart from similar groups. Consequently, in my view, your willingness to share your knowledge and experience is simply continuing a tradition.

Thank you!
Donn

 

[Gofor]

...My quandary is that some folks charge from $50 to $100 for classes and I do it for free. Am I taking money from them or preventing them from making money? They are professional teachers, established schools and or respected authors. I'm just an old country boy who figured out some things that work and want to help my fellow craftsmen work easier. Do I cheapen their work somehow?....

If you follow the logic that some folks charge and you are doing it for free, then none of us should make any furniture, because some here make a living doing it, and none of us should make cabinets, because some here also do that professionally. We shouldn't help our neighbors, because that is taking money from a professional. What about the free how-to demos at Klingspor's some members provide? Then you carry that logic forward, aren't those that teach skills professionally taking away money from those that produce the products? Carry that logic forward, and then there are no hobby woodworkers, which would destroy many of the businesses that cater to us with tools, materials, books and magazines.

Am I supposed to throw good wood in the fire pit instead of giving it away because others here sell turning blanks? Are you supposed to keep all that knowledge to yourself, and never pass it on? How do you know that that knowledge you give someone does not give them the confidence to increase their knowledge, so that they then take one of the more advanced professional classes putting those sharp tools to work? ("Wow, this sharp plane iron really makes this thing work! I need to take a class on how to use the plane now that I know I like using it.")

I'll admit, there are some places in this country where if you did some things for free, somebody would be paying you a visit telling you to "knock it off!" I am very happy its not like that here and hope it never becomes that.

All that said, I think Scott nailed it when he related the purpose of NCWW, of which you are a member. You are one of the most helpful and giving people in this organization. The knowledge and advice you give only leads to others getting more involved in woodworking, which by adding to the customer base only benefits those that have chosen to risk making a business of catering to our (addiction, affliction, ? ..whatever:wconfused

Guess when it boils down to it, you are not dishonest or a crook, just another enabler :gar-La; As well as a fine human being.

JMTCW

Go

 

[junquecol]

Mike I have taught sharpening workshops, and got paid. But to do them, I had to give up my time, both personal and work. I do things for others all the time for FREE, well almost free. Nine years ago, my neighbor moved here from California. He is a retired machinist, and needed three phase in his shop. We built a rotary converter. He paid for the parts and I furnished the knowledge and time. In exchange, he machines my brain farts for me at no charge. He fixed a mortising machine for a fellow ww'r and wouldn't take any payment, because the ww'r was one of my friends. But when I'm doing a paying job, and need his services, I pay him what I would have to pay another machine shop. His well failed right after he moved here, and a new one didn't yield enough water, so he gets water from my well, at no charge. Well almost no charge, because when pump needed replacement, care to guess who helped me pull it? The church next door didn't have any water to speak of, so when I drilled this well in 1987, and got 20 gallons per minute, I just hooked them up to this well. They are my neighbors. I once had a bench top jointer that needed repairs, but didn't need it, so I gave it away. When I replaced my RAS, I gave it to another member. One here didn't have a miter saw, so I lent them one. Another needed a jointer, so I lent them my spare one. That was over a year ago, but I haven't needed it, and it's not in my way when it's at his shop. By lending tools and time and expertise, I have I hurt others who are in business? Probably so, but my reward is much greater than their loss. One thing to remember is "When we leave this earth, will it be a better place because we were here, or because we are no longer here?"

 

[dave "dhi"]

Mike,:icon_thum!!! Hope manfre chimes in!:gar-Bi

 

[Mike Davis]

No need to start anything.

 

[merrill77]

My quandary is that some folks charge from $50 to $100 for classes and I do it for free. Am I taking money from them or preventing them from making money? They are professional teachers, established schools and or respected authors. I'm just an old country boy who figured out some things that work and want to help my fellow craftsmen work easier. Do I cheapen their work somehow?

Cheapen their work? No. Lessen demand? Maybe, but not likely by much. I run into a similar situation in my industry (software) all the time. There are a lot of free software packages that attempt to solve the same problem that our software does - and ours is pretty expensive by comparison. Do they cheapen our product? If that free software worked as well as ours did, then it would be a lot harder to sell ours, for sure (fortunately, they don't). There are probably some potential customers that we loose to that software. If somebody else is willing to give away the work, then we're out of luck. Such is life. But most of the users of that free software would never have been our customer - they simply don't have the budget for it.

I suspect the same is largely true here:

1. Many (most?) of us are naturally self-motivated learners - and can get by on reading online resources or magazines. I'll wager that most those who attend your workshop were never potential customers of those offering paid classes, because they wouldn't pay for such a class in the first place.
2. If I were to come to one of your workshops, it would be primarily to get out of the house and meet some more NCWWers. While I'm sure I would learn a bunch, that would not be my primary motivation - just a nice bonus!

That's just my theory, though.

But am I dishonest?

Most certainly not! You are contributing your time and effort to a community that is dedicated to teaching and learning. A most respectable act.