Shoulder Plane

[Plunkett]

I am in need of some advice and suggestions. I am going to attempt some mortise and tenon joinery for a few upcoming projects, two desks and a coffee table. This will be my first real attempt. After doing some research, it seems like a shoulder plane would be ideal to fine tune the tenons and shoulders for a snug fit. I plan on cutting the tenons with a jig I made for the TS and the mortises with another jig I made for my plunge router. I was looking at the Stanley Sweetheart #92 as an option. I realize Lie Nielsen is considered the best, but I'm not sure about investing that much yet.

1. Is the shoulder plane the ideal option for fine tuning the shoulder and tenon?
2. If not, what are the other methods you all use?
3. If so, is the 3/4" blade size a good starting point? Most of my tenons will be 3/4 to 7/8 I think.
4. If so, is the Stanley a decent option or should I look elsewhere?

Thanks!!

 

[Jeff]

I have this one and the blade is 3/4" wide.

http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=48430&cat=1,41182,41192,48430

 

[Rwe2156]

You can get yourself into trouble very quickly using a shoulder plane on tenon faces. So I use a router plane to tune up tenons. This keeps the face of tenon parallel with the face of the board (very important for a good fit). For long tenons, attach an extension base to one side of the router plane with a little knob to use as a pivot.

If you're going to buy one shoulder plane, my suggestion is get a large one but 3/4 is OK. Even if planing shallow shoulders, the extra mass makes the going much better.

Stanley is fine if you can find one for a reasonable price. I would only say beware of Ebay and if you do buy there, go over those pictures with a magnifying glass. Been disappointed too many times so now I mainly buy new tools.

I own 2 shoulder planes: a Lee Valley (1/2") and a Lie Nielsen (1").

Of the two I prefer the LV for the the overall ergonomics and the side iron adjustment screws.

 

[zdorsch]

I was looking at shoulder planes for the same reason, but ended up giving up since the only planes that folks mention worth purchasing are around $200. There seemed to be a lot of negative opinions about the new Stanley shoulder planes and machining defects. The better shoulder planes seem to be a steep price for something fairly specialized—at least to me, but I’m sure others will disagree. With that said I would still like one and have been on the lookout for something cheaper at used/antique stores.

On a side note, this seems to be a good discussion about shoulder planes:

http://www.renaissancewoodworker.com/shoulder-planes/

 

[Melinapex]

+1 to what DrBob said. I have been doing a lot of m&t lately and have been chopping the mortises by hand using Paul Sellers method. For the tenons I get them close on the table saw, then finish the faces with the veritas router, and tweak the shoulders with the veritas shoulder plane. Takes a while but I am not in a hurry and I enjoy the process.

 

[marinosr]

I had a beautiful Record 311 that I got on Ebay for $120 complete with a custom walnut box that the previous owner (a well-known harp maker) built. After a year collecting dust, I sold it... I just didn't find it very useful. Do NOT buy one of the new Stanley shoulder planes. I made that mistake, and luckily it was through Amazon so right back it went.

Definitely don't use a shoulder plane on the cheeks of a tenon... Like Dr Bob said above, use a router plane (a very useful tool, well worth the investment IMO) instead. I just use a wide bench chisel to clean up my shoulders, if they're not 100% coming off the saw. Using a dozuki though I find I can often get very nice shoulders that require no cleanup afterward. You can undercut them with the chisel if you like for a guaranteed flawless-looking fit, though some people say this weakens the joint. I don't think it can decrease the strength too much if the tenon is a good fit.

 

[TENdriver]

Lee, Some really good advice that I agree with.

I feel pretty strongly about these answers.

Use the LV router plane to fix your tenon cheeks. Sometimes its just a personal preference on brand, but The LV router is slightly better than the LN version. Bottom line, a router plane can be an absolute joy to use and it simply works great for tenons.

On the shoulder plane, buy only a LV or LN shoulder plane. You won’t regret either of those. Next, I personally started with the smaller sizes of shoulder planes. I then bought the large LV. If you’re doing normal sized pieces like furniture, I’d highly encourage you to get the larger size. There are several reasons, but myself (and possibly a few other hand tool users) prefer the mass when tackling shoulder end grain.

BTW, I prefer a mortising chisel and a mallet over a router. I did break down and get a powermatic mortiser for off hours work. Only because it’s quiet. The marking gauge, mallet and chisel are still my first choice.

 

[Plunkett]

This is great info and extremely helpful. I think I'm now leaning toward a LV router plane. It sounds like it is a bit more helpful on the cheeks and can be versatile elsewhere. I like the LV selection of blades along with the fence. I may try the chisel method to clean up the shoulders if needed. You guys are bad for my tool budget. :help:

 

[danmart77]

I am in need of some advice and suggestions. I am going to attempt some mortise and tenon joinery for a few upcoming projects, two desks and a coffee table. This will be my first real attempt. After doing some research, it seems like a shoulder plane would be ideal to fine tune the tenons and shoulders for a snug fit. I plan on cutting the tenons with a jig I made for the TS and the mortises with another jig I made for my plunge router. I was looking at the Stanley Sweetheart #92 as an option. I realize Lie Nielsen is considered the best, but I'm not sure about investing that much yet.

1. Is the shoulder plane the ideal option for fine tuning the shoulder and tenon?
Not in my view. I have two and now I use the LN rabbet block plane.

2. If not, what are the other methods you all use?
Rabbet block puts more sole on the face of the tenon and makes it easier for me than the narrow shoulder plane

3. If so, is the 3/4" blade size a good starting point? Most of my tenons will be 3/4 to 7/8 I think.
If your tenons are that short, the plane I feature won't make that much difference. But its a multipurpose tool unlike the shoulder.

4. If so, is the Stanley a decent option or should I look elsewhere? Could not tell you.

This plane sells for 175 new and its a work horse. You can use it a block plane around the shop, it has an adjustable mouth, sits at 12 degrees so it cuts end grain like butter, and the adjustments are well designed. I think Veritas has a line of these but I don't have one or had the chance to use one.

If I could go back, I'd skip my metal shoulder planes and just use the rabbet block for my work.

good luck

 

[JimD]

I have cut mortises by drilling and chiseling, with a plunge router, and with a hollow chisel mortiser. I prefer the hollow chisel mortiser because it is quieter and easier to set up but the plunge router makes a smoother mortise. But tests have not shown an advantage to a smoother mortise, I think there is data going the other way. But a plunge router is definitely a good way to make the mortise IMHO.

For small pieces, I cut the tenon on the table saw with a home made jig that holds the workpiece vertical. After lots of trying, I had to give up on cutting perfect tenons. My jig rides the rip fence and I have a micropositioner for the rip fence which gets me close very easily. But even very small variation in workpiece thickness throws off my cuts so I do not get the snug but not pound it in tight fit I want consistently. So I try to set up the saw to get the snug fit on the thinner pieces and trim the face of the tenon on the thicker ones.

So I gave up and got a Stanley shoulder plane with a 1 inch wide blade. The cutter required a lot of work to get into usable shape - it was not well sharpened - and it doesn't fit my hand great but it works fine. I trim shoulders sometimes but I also trim the surface of the tenons. But only slightly, never more than 1/32. For tenons in big pieces (bed parts) I rough them on my radial arm saw with a dado blade. That leaves a irregular surface that I smooth up and final size with the shoulder plane.

When trimming shoulders, I find it helpful to note which shoulder shows and which one does not. I want to get the one that shows really good and tight fitting and if there is a small gap on the other side that does not show, that is OK with me. I find it tricky to get both sides really tight fitting at the same time, in other words. But I typically have less trimming to do on shoulders than on tenon faces. Probably has something to do with my planner not locking down and producing lumber at real precise thickness.

 

[Jeff]

In defense of the shoulder plane for fine tuning tenon cheeks and shoulders. I disagree with many of the suggestions that a router plane is the way to go but I'm used to my shoulder plane. Whatever works for you in your shop will get it done.

https://www.finewoodworking.com/2013/09/13/how-to-use-a-shoulder-plane

https://www.finewoodworking.com/2005/10/25/using-shoulder-planes

 

[Plunkett]

I saw this plane on their website, and it looked intriguing. I think I saw Greg Paolini using it to shape tenons. I like the "core tools" section of the LN website. I will add this one to my personal core tools list...hopefully, the next purchase.

I am in need of some advice and suggestions. I am going to attempt some mortise and tenon joinery for a few upcoming projects, two desks and a coffee table. This will be my first real attempt. After doing some research, it seems like a shoulder plane would be ideal to fine tune the tenons and shoulders for a snug fit. I plan on cutting the tenons with a jig I made for the TS and the mortises with another jig I made for my plunge router. I was looking at the Stanley Sweetheart #92 as an option. I realize Lie Nielsen is considered the best, but I'm not sure about investing that much yet.

1. Is the shoulder plane the ideal option for fine tuning the shoulder and tenon?
Not in my view. I have two and now I use the LN rabbet block plane.

2. If not, what are the other methods you all use?
Rabbet block puts more sole on the face of the tenon and makes it easier for me than the narrow shoulder plane

3. If so, is the 3/4" blade size a good starting point? Most of my tenons will be 3/4 to 7/8 I think.
If your tenons are that short, the plane I feature won't make that much difference. But its a multipurpose tool unlike the shoulder.

4. If so, is the Stanley a decent option or should I look elsewhere? Could not tell you.

This plane sells for 175 new and its a work horse. You can use it a block plane around the shop, it has an adjustable mouth, sits at 12 degrees so it cuts end grain like butter, and the adjustments are well designed. I think Veritas has a line of these but I don't have one or had the chance to use one.

If I could go back, I'd skip my metal shoulder planes and just use the rabbet block for my work.

good luck

 

[Gofor]

I have the modern Stanley Sweetheart 92 shoulder/chisel plane. It is well machined, and the ability to adjust the mouth is good. Had to do some work on the blade, but otherwise good.

The main drawback I have with it is its size: it is too small. At the front where your forefinger sits, its only 1 1/4" tall, going up to about 2 1/4 at the back where it sits in your palm. The sole is 5" long. Because of the short height and 3/4" width, it is hard to hold and control when doing a tenon shoulder without the tenon hitting your hand/fingers. Its also difficult to keep it registered square when trimming a tenon face. Having some arthritis in my hands may also be a factor. It works well smoothing out the bottom of dadoes, but at a full 3/4" wide, is too wide for dadoes for today's undersized plywood thicknesses.

Should I buy/make another, it will be taller and longer to make it easier to keep it square. On wide shoulders, I have better luck using my old rabbet/fillister plane handed down from my dad, (Its either a sears or montgomery ward knock-off of the Stanley 78). However, with no mouth adjustment, it is hard to get a smooth shoulder cut on a 2"-3" long 1/4" shoulder. At times I have used a piece of sandpaper glued to the edge of a 4" wide board for the shoulders, and a piece glued to the wide side for the tenon face (i.e. sanding block). I have also used my LV rabbet plane with good results.

As stated above, I concentrate on the "show" or "face " side shoulder. If I relieve the back a tad too much, it doesn't ruin the joint.

Please consider that I am no expert in the use of shoulder planes, and my technique (or lack of) is most likely the source of most of my problems.

Go

 

[Mike Davis]

I don't own a shoulder plane. I use a router plane to thin the checks and a chisel to trim the shoulders.
Lee Valley cutters fit the old Stanley router planes.

 

[Plunkett]

This group is the best. It gives rookies like me some confidence to at least try making quality pieces.

 

[TENdriver]

In defense of the shoulder plane for fine tuning tenon cheeks and shoulders. I disagree with many of the suggestions that a router plane is the way to go but I'm used to my shoulder plane. Whatever works for you in your shop will get it done.

https://www.finewoodworking.com/2013/09/13/how-to-use-a-shoulder-plane

https://www.finewoodworking.com/2005/10/25/using-shoulder-planes

Jeff, I’m dedicated proponent of mortise and tenon. I could slip into an enthusiastic, hours long discussion on this question. I’m tamping it down...and it’s a struggle.

I do think a LV router plane combined with a LN or LV (larger) shoulder plane is a reliable and simple way to “start” on making great tenons.

That said, a shoulder plane (or DanMart’s beautiful LN block rabbet which I’d like to own) absolutely does work on cheeks or shoulders. Sometimes the shoulder plane is the best tool because it’s so wonderfully precise. Or, because it’s already in my hand and all my other tools are literally on the other side of the room.

I also like (as in enjoy) using an incredibly sharp paring chisel on shoulders and cheeks. Pretty much I’ll use whatever is at hand and/or is best suited to the specific task.



Without a doubt, your last sentence is some of the very best advice!

 

[JimD]

I did not comment on other tools for trimming. I have never used a router plane. Perhaps I'd like it better if I did but the shoulder plane works fine for me. I've tried using a knife and chisel on the shoulder with indifferent results. On the show side, I tend to leave small gaps with that technique. Others may easily be more skilled. I've used a chisel on the faces but the results were not great.
I have trouble controlling my cuts as well as I want with a chisel. That rabbeting block plane looks slick and better for large tenons for sure. But, again, I am not having trouble getting results that are acceptable to me with my shoulder plane.

I will also say it's nice that we have a lot of options. The trick is to find something that works for you. Once, I do, I tend to just repeat the successful experience.

 

[Rwe2156]

I have both the Stanley 71 and the LV. The Stanley does a good job, although like a lot of Stanley planes, finding one at a reasonable price can be a challenge. I bought mine on Ebay several years ago for $50.

Couple things to consider on the LV are the ergonomics, the depth set screw, and the blades are easier to sharpen because they can be removed and installed on a jig.

As mentioned, using a chisel to tune up shoulders is a perfectly acceptable technique. One advantage of using a chisel to pare a shoulder is you can do a slight backcut, which give a bit tighter line.

So I think just a router plane and chisel is a good combo. And don't forget the router plane has other uses such as cleaning out dado bottoms, rabbets, etc.

 

[willarda]

The best way to get great tenon shoulders (not the cheeks) is to chop and saw them carefully. When you use a shoulder plane on a tenon shoulder you run the risk of spelching out the shoulder at the end of the pass. Also, you are assuming that your tenon cheeks are square, flat and without twist or tilt. Not always the case!

The best approach is to gang up your parts to be tenoned, and square across all of them at once with a knife to define the locations of the tenon shoulders on all parts at the same time. That way your frame ill be square. Then, using the face side rule, square each piece completely around with the knife and a square. This defines all four shoulders of each tenon. Lay out your tenon cheeks with a mortise gauge, again obeying the face side rule. Saw the cheeks down to the scribed baselines. To remove the tenon cheek waste material, first use a sharp chisel held vertically in the knife line to slightly deepen the knife kerf. Then from the waste side of the shoulder, chop out a shallow vee to the shoulder. This gives you a good reference surface to guide your saw and puts the set of the saw teeth below the finished surface of the stock. When you saw down, rest your saw in that vee groove and angle the saw ever so slightly towards the waste (one degree or so). This will undercut the shoulder very slightly and insure that when the tenon shoulder meets the mortise, the joint will close right on the knife line. No shoulder plane needed.

Working on the tenon cheeks is another story all together. First, the goal is to saw the two faces of the cheek so that the tenon has neither twist or tilt. Also, you have to saw just up to but not over the scribed mortise line. The rule here is never to saw what you cannot see! To accomplish this, I clamp the stock at an angle in the vise, saw what I can see, then reverse the stock and saw from the other direction. This is a progressive operation. The goal first is to establish 3 kerfs on each cheek that are right on the money, then deepen these kerfs until the saw is adequately guided at one time by all 3 kerfs. Sawing (or attempting to) straight down on a cheek is like putting all of your eggs in one basket--going for broke!