Shaper question

[Rbohno]

I keep pricing Router table tops and fencing so by the time I spend money on a 3hp router, table top and decent fence I have come close to the price of a shaper.

I promise I am not trying to open a can of worms but am trying to decide on which direction to go. I saw Grizzly sells a collet for $59 that will allow a shaper to run 1/4 and 1/2" router bits which would eliminate the need to buy shaper bits until they are needed?

I tried to search for a thread on this here and on the router forum to no avail. It seems for most this is a black and white question with no gray areas with regards to opinions.

I know in the last few days I have been posting alot of tool questions but since refinance is done and Grizzly just emailed their elusive 10% off coupon I am going to order all of my equipment the last couple of days before the coupons expires so everything isn't sitting in my garage for so long.

Yall have helped me decide on table saw and planer so now is the last decision for upcoming Grizz purchase.

 

[Jeremy Scuteri]

One difference is the spindle speed. Many routers will rotate above 20,000 RPMs which is useful for smaller bits like you would typically use in a router.

 

[chris_goris]

I have a shaper with an enormous amount of tooling. I wish I had started with a shaper years ago and not wasted money on several routers and router bits. Today, there are lots of router lift kits etc for making a router table try to emulate a shaper. Like Jeremy has said, shapers spin slower, however, cutters are MUCH larger in diameter and typically have 3-4 cutting edges. Its all about tip speed and surface feet per min removed. I would never use one of those shaper collets to run router bits unless it were a panel raising cutter or something and even then Im not sure I would do it. Shapers are far more flexible than router tables in that you can stack multiple cutters and also reverse directions of the spindle. For me routers are for hand held work only.

 

[mkepke]

Some reasons shapers and router tables aren't replacements for each other. You'll have to decide which do/don't apply to your needs:

* Shapers spin at about half the speed of routers
* The spindle on a shaper often won't retract low enough to allow material to be passed over the top of the spindle. This means, e.g. no dovetail bits, no finger joints, no keyhole bits, no corebox bits can be used as intended
* Shapers often have lousy fences - especially compared to aftermarket router fences
* Shapers often require 240V circuits
* A router can be taken out of a table and used for handheld work (although that gets to be a pain quickly)

-Mark

 

[chris_goris]

Some reasons shapers and router tables aren't replacements for each other. You'll have to decide which do/don't apply to your needs:

* Shapers spin at about half the speed of routers
* The spindle on a shaper often won't retract low enough to allow material to be passed over the top of the spindle. This means, e.g. no dovetail bits, no finger joints, no keyhole bits, no corebox bits can be used as intended
* Shapers often have lousy fences - especially compared to aftermarket router fences
* Shapers often require 240V circuits
* A router can be taken out of a table and used for handheld work (although that gets to be a pain quickly)

-Mark

As I said, hand work, Oh you may want to look at the fence system on a PM2700 Shaper, Im quite certain no aftermarket router table fence can compare. As for spindle speed, you need to look at merely tip speed of the cutter. A 1" diameter cutter spinning at 20k Rpms has a tip speed of 62,824 inches/min, while a 4" shaper cutter spinning at 10k Rpms has a tip speed of 125K inch/min

 

[mkepke]

As I said, hand work, Oh you may want to look at the fence system on a PM2700 Shaper, Im quite certain no aftermarket router table fence can compare. As for spindle speed, you need to look at merely tip speed of the cutter. A 1" diameter cutter spinning at 20k Rpms has a tip speed of 62,824 inches/min, while a 4" shaper cutter spinning at 10k Rpms has a tip speed of 125K inch/min

The PM2700 is a $3K shaper, new.

Are there any ~$1K shapers with good fences - because I gather that's the cost point the OP is looking for ?

BTW, since this is a discussion about substituting a router table with a shaper my definition of "good" (YMMV) would be a fence system sufficient to cut box- and dovetail- joints. So <=1/32" accuracy and repeatability.

-Mark

 

[chris_goris]

Rich never makes mention of what it is he intends to make with a router table or shaper. Looking at Grizzly website, It does look like the fences on a $1k shaper arent that bad, cast iron, micro adjust etc. What I am suggesting is for "shaping" operations like decent size profiles (anything over say 3/4" tall) a router table is not a good tool for this job. A 3 HP shaper will easily cut a 3" tall profile full depth in one pass in hardwood and wont flinch. Routers and router tables are good for doing small shaping, but fail miserably compared to a shaper for things like cope and stick doors and raised panels. Sure, you can do it... but not as well. Ive used both and Like I said, from my experiences with both, I would never go back to try to do the things Ive mentioned on a router table. I am unsure how you are using your router table fence to do box and dovetail joints , I have always used a tablesaw and a jig for box joints.

 

[Jeremy Scuteri]

Chris,
One question about taking a full depth pass on a large profile with a shaper; do you get a smooth finish without tear out when you do this? When I use my router table (with a 3 HP PC 7518), I generally take multiple passes, not because the router isn't capable of taking a heavier bite, but because I want to avoid tear out.

 

[chris_goris]

Jeremy,
I have that some router, while its a good one, they just dont have the Umph required or the cutter mass to keep chatter at bay. And yes, you can get a smooth one pass finish.

 

[SubGuy]

I had a write up concerning the difference of router vice shaper awhile back, I will look for it. Basically, each one has their own respective usages and advantages. Feed rate is important with both. I have both and use both for different situations. Basically understanding the principle differences is the key to deciding what to use. RPMs aren't necessarily the whole story here. As you have heard, small bits get higher RPM in a router, and here is why. Speed of the cutting edge against the cutting surface. That really boils down to RPMs over circumference of the cutting edge. I.E. - cutter bit at 10,000 RPM is making 10,000 cuts per minutes per cutter. Speed of the cutting edge is figured out by rotation at the cutter over distance traveled. If it's 6" circumference bit and you are at 1000 RPM you are moving 6,000 in/m. So in cutters like shapers which run at a lower RPM, it compensates with large circumference cutters. In contrast a router has smaller circumference cutters but a much higher RPM rates. There are many other factors such as cutter weight and mass, angle of the cutter and on an on. But to summarize my thoughts, if you intend on cutting panels with router panel bits (which have the larger circumference) you will be fine. If you use smaller bits, you will probably be unhappy as you will have to slow your feed rate down to such a crawl and you will still have cutter marks in your work. So don't use it for 1/4" bits, only LARGE 1/2" bits. You may also be unhappy with a 3/4hp shaper as well. I doubt you will be able to make the full passes I make on my 5hp. I would say you will find occasions for both and should use both for the proper occasion.

 

[Bill Clemmons]

Conventional wisdom, as well as everyone who has already responded to this thread, says do not use router bits in a spindle shaper. And since all the logic makes sense, I certainly can't argue w/ it. However, I will tell you I've been doing just what you asked about for more than 20 years and never had a problem.

My Taiwan made shaper accepts 1/4 and 1/2" collets for router bits, and I use it exclusively for that purpose. I have another shaper that I use for larger shaper bits. Someone commented that a shaper does not lower enough to use many router bits. That is definitely true for my Delta shaper, but not for my Taiwan version. In fact, I've used both dovetail and core box bits within the last two weeks. I built a larger auxiliary table and fence to make it more usable.

Don't mean to start an argument: just letting you know what I do and how it works.

​

 

[BWSmith]

The fence systems on shapers run the full gamut of precision,materials,usability,expense,etc.

Google Aigner shaper fences for the "designer" end of them.There is also "outboard" fences that are extremely useful,and not anymore complicated than a nice straight Aluminum extrusion.Generally,the "stock" fences that come on most price point shapers today are serviceable.They need to be checked pretty good for any squareness/straightness/alignment issues.We machine ours to pretty close tolerances.You can use all manner of methods getting them in spec(it dosen't have to go into machineshop).And,it isn't really that hard to do....I think it comes very naturally once you start to really appreciate how shaper fences work.

Guarding on them is serious.I'd say most shaper accidents come from inexperience.....not with the tool itself,but the shortness of breadth and depth of the guards.In alot of cases in a pro shop,we're pretty much in a big hurry.Missing an "opportunity" causes problems with shaper safety.The guards can act as hold-downs....and also dust management.On this pce of equipment they're easily made and engineered to accomplish several important tasks.It's when the guy in the shop....worker or owner...dosen't fully understand the guards full potential,gets in a hurry...that problems creep in.Like fence systems....I think guard/hold-downs come naturally for those seeking high precision work on their shaper.

Power feeds are very helpful....and you'll hear an awful lot of folks basically saying they're an absolute.It ain't that easy,theres an awful lot of shaper use that they aren't on the menu.It goes right back to the guards....you have to make it just about impossible for the hand to get near the cutter.If you've ever "ridden the fence" on a tablesaw.........that sort of thing is what causes accidents on a shaper,and is what I'm talking about.There is a direct correlation to the diameter of the cutter and its force potential for accidents.You do not "play" with shapers....you either take them as a serious pce of equipment,with well thought out/engineered guards,or you're going to be hurt.

 

[chris_goris]

The fence systems on shapers run the full gamut of precision,materials,usability,expense,etc.

Google Aigner shaper fences for the "designer" end of them.There is also "outboard" fences that are extremely useful,and not anymore complicated than a nice straight Aluminum extrusion.Generally,the "stock" fences that come on most price point shapers today are serviceable.They need to be checked pretty good for any squareness/straightness/alignment issues.We machine ours to pretty close tolerances.You can use all manner of methods getting them in spec(it dosen't have to go into machineshop).And,it isn't really that hard to do....I think it comes very naturally once you start to really appreciate how shaper fences work.

Guarding on them is serious.I'd say most shaper accidents come from inexperience.....not with the tool itself,but the shortness of breadth and depth of the guards.In alot of cases in a pro shop,we're pretty much in a big hurry.Missing an "opportunity" causes problems with shaper safety.The guards can act as hold-downs....and also dust management.On this pce of equipment they're easily made and engineered to accomplish several important tasks.It's when the guy in the shop....worker or owner...dosen't fully understand the guards full potential,gets in a hurry...that problems creep in.Like fence systems....I think guard/hold-downs come naturally for those seeking high precision work on their shaper.

Power feeds are very helpful....and you'll hear an awful lot of folks basically saying they're an absolute.It ain't that easy,theres an awful lot of shaper use that they aren't on the menu.It goes right back to the guards....you have to make it just about impossible for the hand to get near the cutter.If you've ever "ridden the fence" on a tablesaw.........that sort of thing is what causes accidents on a shaper,and is what I'm talking about.There is a direct correlation to the diameter of the cutter and its force potential for accidents.You do not "play" with shapers....you either take them as a serious pce of equipment,with well thought out/engineered guards,or you're going to be hurt.

BW,
I agree, shapers are not something to take lightly. There are alot of knobs and adjustments to contend with when setting one up and I go through all of them at least twice before I turn the machine on plus manually spin the cutter to ensure its all clear. I do have a powerfeed on mine but I dont seem to use it much. If Im running alot of the same thing I will set it up and use it but as a hobbyist, thats a rarity. I looked at those Aigner fences and I dont really get it, I can accomplish the same thing by mounting a solid fence (made of plywood with a cutter cutout) to my fence system, this works particularly well for raising panels. I suppose so one doesnt have to keep a myriad of these laying around for each cutter it may be handy, but Im not sure how one could justify the cost.

 

[Pop Golden]

I have a very good router table, fence & miter system from JessEm. Total cost with the P-C 3hp. was around $1000.00. Love it! I like the high speed of the router motor and The work I do has never needed the big swing of the shaper. Another reasion I don't have a shaper is I don't got no place to squeeze it in the shop.

Pop G.

 

[BWSmith]

Chris,no...the Aigner is not worth it for our shop.We just fabricate whats needed.Heres a control box enclosure,moving 3hp Griz controls up from side,to top where we can reach it.It'll end up painted with an Aluminum front.Hope these pics show up

 

[BWSmith]

That was first attempt at posting pic......heres a shot of it in place.It's almost ready to go to paint.

Hall table is last of a dz.Gotta get back to work,that one was sold and cust. wanted a sm bookcase to go with it.

 

[JimD]

I've never purchased even a router plate for a router table. I always build them. They can be as simple as a mounted extra base for a router motor in the auxiliary table of your table saw. I have one like that. I also have one with a home made screw adjustable height. I've used a shaper only many years ago in wood shop in high school. I wish I had a shaper when I make raised panel doors. My router table will work but it is much slower going than a good shaper would be. But for other things I do (cope and stick + various edge routing) my router tables work well.

For me a router table is an inexpensive way to do some of the things a shaper will do. The cutters are also less expensive for a router. But a router will not do the large cuts possible on a shaper and is a lot slower to do some of the things it will do.

If you have the space and dollars I would get both. But there is no need to spend a bunch of money on a router table. Mine is shaped like Norm's from the new yankee workshop - you can probably get plans - but uses a lift idea out of an old american woodworker magazine article along with a few of my ideas. The top is a sink cutout edged with maple. From Grizzley, I would get the shaper unless they sell good routers, been awhile since I went through their catalog.

 

[Skymaster]

I run router bits in my shaper, yes they run slower so you have to adjust for that however when I make raised panels, t&g, etc etc NO router can do the job as easily as a shaper

 

[SubGuy]

I agree with that. My monster and power feeder make T&G like a champ at speeds that would choke a router and with no burn or tear-out.

I run router bits in my shaper, yes they run slower so you have to adjust for that however when I make raised panels, t&g, etc etc NO router can do the job as easily as a shaper

 

[Rbohno]

about the time I think I have made my mind up I see a post and think the shaper is the way to go BUT if the router bits when in the collet wont lower enough for certain types of passes then I guess I will have to start out with a router table. I have two routers and one is a 2.25hp Skil model 1825 so if I purchased the Kreg top and fence I would be out about $400. Plus the cost of the wood and hardware to make the table. ~$500 not including router but already have that.????

So the only thing that would change my mind back toward the shaper is if the router bits would lower enough while in the collet to run any bit I chose.