SawStop Injury
- Thread starter patlaw
- Start date
- Status
It seems a simple matter of physics to me that the faster you move your finger into the rotation blade, the less of the finger you get to keep. My SawStop is still in the box, so I don't have any personal experiences yet, but if the electrician ever shows up, I hope to have some positive reports.
The SawStop isn't a cure all for our mistakes but it may minimize the injury. From what I've read and seen it doesn't stop on a dime but 5-10 milliseconds is pretty short. The fella that was injured only got a superficial cut that was held shut by 3 stitches that's a minor nick that was probably only 1-3mm. I'd say the SawStop technology did it's job as advertised! :thumbs_up
When you compare this injury to the severe table saw injuries that I have seen over the years, it was indeed a minor injury. I have talked to woodworkers who absolutely hate Sawstop as a company and as a technology. Before I bought a Sawstop Pro saw last year I did a lot of research on the tool. What stood out were not the folks who had minor injuries from their Sawstop saw but the total absence of people who had received a serious injury because their Sawstop saws brake technology had failed.
When discussing the safety brake technology on a Sawstop saw, you read a lot of calculations of how far the blade turns in one-thousandth of a second. There is not a lot of discussion of how quickly the blade drops below the top of the table. In my mind, the hotdog test is pretty convincing. Try that test on a Powermatic or Jet saw and I think that the results will be vastly worse than on a Sawstop table saw.
I sold my Grizzly cabinet saw because it didn't have a riving knife, which I consider to be a very effective safety device. I started out to just buy essentially the saw saw but with a riving knife. When I was talking to my wife about teaching my nephew some woodworking skills she shuttered at the thought of him using a table saw. I agreed with her; he has little experience with power tools and the thought of him possibly being crippled by my table saw was enough incentive for me to order a Sawstop Pro instead of another Grizzly cabinet saw, even though the Grizzly saw about about half the price of the Sawstop.
The Sawstop saw works great. It's well built and very easy to calibrate. Changing out the brakes when switching from a dado stack to a single blade only take a couple of minutes and the overall accuracy and quality of the saw is impressive. I do not regret spending the additional money on the Sawstop. I know that the odds of me or my nephew seriously injuring ourselves on this saw are very low. We both still use good safety practices on the Sawstop, just as if it didn't have a brake.
I am old enough to remember when construction circular saws came out with electric brakes. While they didn't stop the 7 1/4" blade instantly, they did stop the blade quickly enough to keep someone from slicing open his leg if the blade guard became snagged on his apron or pants while putting the saw down. I have, at times, wondered how many serious injuries were prevented by those electric brakes.
It is not unreasonable to foresee a day when some sort of viable brake technology is mandatory on all table saw, just as the riving knife is today. It might be a Sawstop type of design or someone might develop something that is safer and less expensive.
I know a people who are resistant to safety technologies that range from motorcycle helmets, to seat belts, to the new auto-braking systems on automobiles. A lot of safety measures in the construction industry today were once practically the objects of job site revolts when they were first required by OSHA.
As someone who likes the advantages that safety harnesses, full-face helmets, and seat belts provide, I fully respect anyone's decision to manage the risk that he faces in this life to the degree that he or she desires. If someone does not feel the need for a brake on their table saw, I have no problem with that.
Pete
When discussing the safety brake technology on a Sawstop saw, you read a lot of calculations of how far the blade turns in one-thousandth of a second. There is not a lot of discussion of how quickly the blade drops below the top of the table. In my mind, the hotdog test is pretty convincing. Try that test on a Powermatic or Jet saw and I think that the results will be vastly worse than on a Sawstop table saw.
I sold my Grizzly cabinet saw because it didn't have a riving knife, which I consider to be a very effective safety device. I started out to just buy essentially the saw saw but with a riving knife. When I was talking to my wife about teaching my nephew some woodworking skills she shuttered at the thought of him using a table saw. I agreed with her; he has little experience with power tools and the thought of him possibly being crippled by my table saw was enough incentive for me to order a Sawstop Pro instead of another Grizzly cabinet saw, even though the Grizzly saw about about half the price of the Sawstop.
The Sawstop saw works great. It's well built and very easy to calibrate. Changing out the brakes when switching from a dado stack to a single blade only take a couple of minutes and the overall accuracy and quality of the saw is impressive. I do not regret spending the additional money on the Sawstop. I know that the odds of me or my nephew seriously injuring ourselves on this saw are very low. We both still use good safety practices on the Sawstop, just as if it didn't have a brake.
I am old enough to remember when construction circular saws came out with electric brakes. While they didn't stop the 7 1/4" blade instantly, they did stop the blade quickly enough to keep someone from slicing open his leg if the blade guard became snagged on his apron or pants while putting the saw down. I have, at times, wondered how many serious injuries were prevented by those electric brakes.
It is not unreasonable to foresee a day when some sort of viable brake technology is mandatory on all table saw, just as the riving knife is today. It might be a Sawstop type of design or someone might develop something that is safer and less expensive.
I know a people who are resistant to safety technologies that range from motorcycle helmets, to seat belts, to the new auto-braking systems on automobiles. A lot of safety measures in the construction industry today were once practically the objects of job site revolts when they were first required by OSHA.
As someone who likes the advantages that safety harnesses, full-face helmets, and seat belts provide, I fully respect anyone's decision to manage the risk that he faces in this life to the degree that he or she desires. If someone does not feel the need for a brake on their table saw, I have no problem with that.
Pete
Before someone reads this as not intended, I meant that regardless of what technology or other safety devices such as riving knives, blade guards or whatever are installed, and used, on a table saw or any other tool, powered or not, the safety device between our ears needs to always be actively engaged. I truly believe that there is always a way to hurt yourself. Best you can do is stack the odds in your favor.
I didn't read it that way, Rick. No worries.
I only quoted myself to clarify I wasn't making an anti-sawstop comment. I don't own a sawstop and probably won't just because my current saw will most likely outlive me. I cannot justify a new table saw of any kind. However, if I hypothetically did buy a sawstop I wouldn't treat it as any less dangerous than any other table saw and not let down my guard.
In the video a claim was made that in the cabinet shops where he worked the blade guards were never used. Being a hobbyist I use the guard as much as possible and only remove it when not doing through cuts. I see claims about improvements in safety due to riving knife and found myself wondering is the riving knife more effective than the older style guard? Perhaps the big improvement that they were always being used while blade guards were set to the side? Clearly the riving knife has an advantage that it can be used on non-through cuts, however, is the chances of kickback on such cuts very high?
Not looking to start any major debate, but since many of the older saws on the market do not have the riving knife I'd like really understand if for a normal-through cut, does the riving knife provide any major safety advantage over using the older style guards that have anit-kickback prawls?
Not looking to start any major debate, but since many of the older saws on the market do not have the riving knife I'd like really understand if for a normal-through cut, does the riving knife provide any major safety advantage over using the older style guards that have anit-kickback prawls?
My understanding is the riving knife prevents the cut from closing up on the rear of the blade, which is spinning toward you and will launch the board in your direction. My guess is the pawls are useful in preventing the board from being launched at you, but the riving knife is more useful in preventing the blade from being grabbed by the board in the first place. Or so it seems to me.
The riving knife is used to keep the kerf from closing up and jamming the blade. If the blade jams, especially at the leading edge of the cut, the blade can throw the wood up and back towards the operator. The pawls are intended to grab the board if it begins to move towards the operator and is somewhat finicky (at least on my saw) to adjust and they don't prevent the kerf from closing. The only advantage I see to pawls is that kerf closure while ripping is not the only set of circumstances that can cause kickbacks.
I suppose using both a riving knife and anti-kickback pawls together should minimize the chances of a kickback causing harm. That said, I don't use the blade cover and pawls myself because it obstructs my view of the cut, doesn't operate smoothly, causes jams on thin offcuts, and generally is more trouble than it's worth to me. Trying to maneuver the board through the blade cover/guard has caused me many more instances of near kick-backs than without it. The blade guard on my particular table saw may just be poorly designed.
The riving knife stays installed for all through cuts and only comes off when I'm using my dado set basically.
I suppose using both a riving knife and anti-kickback pawls together should minimize the chances of a kickback causing harm. That said, I don't use the blade cover and pawls myself because it obstructs my view of the cut, doesn't operate smoothly, causes jams on thin offcuts, and generally is more trouble than it's worth to me. Trying to maneuver the board through the blade cover/guard has caused me many more instances of near kick-backs than without it. The blade guard on my particular table saw may just be poorly designed.
The riving knife stays installed for all through cuts and only comes off when I'm using my dado set basically.
Last edited:
One of the big things a riving knife does is to prevent the wood from wandering away from the fence into the back of the blade. That causes kickback. That is explained well in this youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7sRrC2Jpp4
The need to hold the wood to the fence is a reason that I think tracksaws are both safer and more reliably accurate than tablesaws. I don't cut big pieces with the table saw any more. I use my track saw. But the example in the video is a little piece of wood. A riving knife would have kept him from being able to rotate the wood away from the fence into the back of the blade. A blade guard would have prevented the wood from flying back at high speed like that and would have prevented his hand from getting so close to the blade.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7sRrC2Jpp4
The need to hold the wood to the fence is a reason that I think tracksaws are both safer and more reliably accurate than tablesaws. I don't cut big pieces with the table saw any more. I use my track saw. But the example in the video is a little piece of wood. A riving knife would have kept him from being able to rotate the wood away from the fence into the back of the blade. A blade guard would have prevented the wood from flying back at high speed like that and would have prevented his hand from getting so close to the blade.
Blade guard. Use it whenever you can. If it appears you cannot use it, be sure you've thought through the cut.
For me, no blade guard only for:
-- Crosscut sled cuts
-- Partial depth cuts
-- Super thin cuts where I cannot get the same result on the outside of the blade.
For me, no blade guard only for:
-- Crosscut sled cuts
-- Partial depth cuts
-- Super thin cuts where I cannot get the same result on the outside of the blade.
Thanks folks for the tips and links - I'd seen that kick-back video before, but was good to re-watch it (as was the original video that started this thread on saw-stop) to remind ourselves just how fast things can go south. Thanks for the education on the advantages of the riving knife. I didn't realize there were some guards that were fixed and didn't align with the blade on tilt operations. For my saw the guard does tilt with the blade and it's attached in a way that it helps prevent the kerf from closing up, although it's thinner than the blade so I can still get some pinching.
In general I've done as tarheelz. I have a small underpowered 8in craftsman saw from the 80's and I'm going to eventually get an upgrade. These discussion help me understand the trade offs of the safety features that are available on newer saws that I want to consider before buying my next new (or used) saw.
In general I've done as tarheelz. I have a small underpowered 8in craftsman saw from the 80's and I'm going to eventually get an upgrade. These discussion help me understand the trade offs of the safety features that are available on newer saws that I want to consider before buying my next new (or used) saw.
I was considering buying a SS for my small shop because I don't want my grandchildren to possibly suffer what I have been through. I made a stupid mistake and now suffering from it. After reading some of your post I am not sure if I want to spend the money on one. If any of my grandchildren want to do wood work they will be taught good safety practices to run the machines. I will keep researching to find the best saw suited for my small shop.
Yep, proper technique and safety in the shop will benefit everyone more than a SawStop.
Table saws are man eaters.
Use push sticks, keep your hands away from the blade, wear eye protection, make a zero tolerance insert for the saw. Matter of fact make several. For some of the big stuff, an out-feed table or device makes things much easier.
These days I don't cut much sheet goods and I never use the TS when I do. The track-saw is my solution for long rips. It just depends on what type of work you like to do in the end. Routers, circular saws and the TS have torn up some of my friends.
Once you use a good push stick that holds the board down and pushes it safely, you will use it all the time. Much like a seat belt in the car, after a while you will feel funny without having it on.
Truthfully, I think most accidents on the TS happen when folks are trying to cut tiny stuff where a bandsaw and a handplane would have been safer.
be careful
Use push sticks, keep your hands away from the blade, wear eye protection, make a zero tolerance insert for the saw. Matter of fact make several. For some of the big stuff, an out-feed table or device makes things much easier.
These days I don't cut much sheet goods and I never use the TS when I do. The track-saw is my solution for long rips. It just depends on what type of work you like to do in the end. Routers, circular saws and the TS have torn up some of my friends.
Once you use a good push stick that holds the board down and pushes it safely, you will use it all the time. Much like a seat belt in the car, after a while you will feel funny without having it on.
Truthfully, I think most accidents on the TS happen when folks are trying to cut tiny stuff where a bandsaw and a handplane would have been safer.
be careful
- Status
Premier Sponsor
Our Sponsors
LATEST FOR SALE LISTINGS
-
-
Graco 395 FinishPro air assisted airless sprayer for sale
- Started by RobH
- Replies: 1
-
-
-