Sanding too smoothe....

Status
Not open for further replies.

Hill

New User
Hill
I was sanding on a couple brackets yesterday that are going on a small wall shelf and after getting the sanding finished, I noticed that the stain wasn't soaking in as much in places. The only thing I can figure is that, the some places on these brackets are TOO smooth to take the stain. Maybe I sanded them too much and didn't realize how smooth they got til it was too late. Is there a grit that you guys usually sand to and then stop?...say up to 220 grit and that's it. Just wondering when smoothe becomes too smoothe to take the stain.
Also, once it's too slick to take stain, how do you sand it rougher again without taking away much more of the wood?

Thanks guys:icon_thum
 

Trent Mason

New User
Trent Mason
Hill,

That's an interesting predicament you have. What kind of wood were you using? What finish? What grit did you sand to?

I've worked with a fair share of different woods and usually sand to 600 and haven't ever had that problem. The only instance when I did have that problem was when I was refinishing something that I had used paint stripper on.

If you want to choose a lower grit, just do it from where you are. Say, if you sanded to 600 and want to go to 320, just grab a sheet of 320 and there you go. :icon_thum


A couple more thoughts:

Where have you been storing your finish? If it has gotten down below freezing it may have affected the finish. :eusa_thin
 

Howard Acheson

New User
Howard
Yes, when staining with pigment stains, it's possible for the surface to become burnished when you sand to too fine a grit. Here's some info that may be helpful.

Sanding wood--hard or soft--beyond 220 does little more than burnish the wood making staining difficult. This is particularly true if you are using a pigment stain which sits on the surface and relies on "nooks and crannies" to impart color. Softer more porous woods can be sanded to to 220 but harder less absorbent woods may stain best if only sanded to 150. The best compromise is to aim for 180 grit.

A number of years ago a large cabinet/custom furniture shop I was involved with did series of adhesion tests with various finishes and sealers. As part of this test we explored adhesion based on sanding grit. We found about the same adhesion up to 180 - 220. Beyond 220 adhesion dropped off due to burnishing of the underlying wood particularly when non-linear machine sanders were used. This was tested on birch panels. We also found that the resulting smoothness of the first coat of finish was not materially affected by the smoothnes of the underlying wood for sandpaper grits between 150 - 220.. The smoothest surface substrate for final finishes was obtained by sanding lightly after the first coat of finish was applied and dry. Which makes the case for a thinned first coat of finish.

So our conclusion was that sanding beyond 180-220 was not necessary and could be actually detrimental.

But, most important was that there was a big appearance affect if the surface was not HAND sanded in the direction of the grain using the highest grit used on the sanding machine. A flat pad sander produced a much flatter surface than a ROS. However, both required final hand sanding with the grain for optimum appearence. If not hand sanded, swirl scratches could show. Final hand sanding using a sanding pad in the direction of the grain is a must.

To carry it one step further, sanding at 320-400 grit after the first coat and subsequent coats was the optimum. No improved appearence was noticed by between coat sanding beyond 400 for varnish. 400 was the sweet spot for thinner finishes. Between coat sanding was always done by hand whether for flattening or for adhesion.

I think you will find similar thoughts in the popular finishing books but YMMV.

Finally, the first coat of ANY finish will soak little shards of wood and cause them to raise whether the surface was sanded, planed or scraped. When the first coat of finish dries these hardened shards are what causes the surface to feel rough. Sanding with 320 paper will remove these hardened shards and subsequent coats will go on smoother. So, smoothness counts after the first coat of finish, but not much before that.

The machine finish determines the starting grit. Jointers, planers, belt sanders etc, should leave a finish that allows starting with 100 grit. From there, go to 120 grit and sand until the marks from the prior grit are gone, then move to 150 and finish at 180 grit.

Plywood is factory sanded to 180 grit. Therefore, it's best to not sand plywood except with 180 grit and sand by hand. Get the first coat of finish on and then sand with 320. That way you are sanding the finish, not the wood. This avoids sanding through today's very thin surface veneer.
 

Dean Maiorano

New User
Dino
Howard, thanks!

OP - there's also the option of toners and/or tinted top coats to even things out? Many factory finishes rely on the addition of toners and tinted top coats to produce the even color people have come to expect in their mass produced furnishings.

http://www.mohawk-finishing.com/
 

Jeff

New User
Jeff
Ditto on the thanks to Howard for providing a very straightforward basic tutorial. Very useful info. :eek:ccasion1
 

fergy

New User
Fergy
I've also discovered it depends on the wood and how you plan to color the wood. I just dyed some maple plywood and splotched it pretty badly because I had only sanded to 180. I discovered, thanks to others here, that I actually needed to burnish is by sanding to 320 or so to get a better finish. The rest of the maple I used turned out great, though I discovered I pulled a lot of dye back out of the wood when wet sanding with oil, but the effect was exactly what I wanted.

Granted, this wasn't a pigment stain, so the dye molecules are a lot smaller. You may find that you can get better results with a gel stain when you sand that fine prior to finishing, but I'd make sure the first coat of finish is thinned to act as a sealer and get some bite.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Premier Sponsor

Our Sponsors

LATEST FOR SALE LISTINGS

Top