I have some cherry kitchen cabinets that were finished with nitrocellulose lacquer several years ago. A friend of mine and I sprayed them outside his garage shop during the summer. The finish has broken down in several places (I have attached photos) and I am not sure if I am going to need to completely sand all the cabinets down to bare wood and re-spray them or what. I sure hope there is a way to avoid that and get an acceptable job as that would be a major job and I am not sure I am up to it. I do have a Fuji Q4 HVLP system that I plan on using to spray the lacquer with. Any ideas on how to tackle this would be much appreciated.
Refinishing advice
- Thread starter Michael Church
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I hate to be the bearer of bad news...
Correcting this is quite possible. Do you remember the manufacturer of the lacquer that you used? If so, my first step would be to give them a call and ask for advice. Do you know if this was a catalyzed lacquer? If so... it's quite possible that sanding the effected areas with 320 grit and re-spraying will solve the problem.
Don't remember the manufacturer or if it was catalyzed or not. The lacquer I have to refinish with is catalyzed. I think I will sand an effected area and re-spray and see how it looks. If it doesn't match I will have to change the plan.
Just be very careful during spraying as the cabinets should really be taken outdoors for spraying (not sure what your plans were) but nitrocellulose lacquer should not be sprayed indoors unless in a spray booth and with an approved respirator equipped with suitable filters for nitrocellulose, you definitely do not want the fumes to be trapped in your home as they can be highly toxic. But I wanted to mention such just in case you were not aware as to how toxic nitrocellulose lacquers can be (but especially in confined spaces) since your friend handled much of the spraying and setup for you last time.
Other finishes, like polyurethane, are considerably safer (though still a fire risk from fumes if you do too much area without adequate ventilation) and water-based finishes are about as safe as can be but they can all require a bit more care applying in order to achieve the desired finish quality. With any finish, you will want to lay down a number of coats in order to improve endurance and add resistance to rub-through in the high use areas, but such is true of all topcoat finishes that must endure heavy wear. That your cabinets have worn through so quickly suggests the coats were likely too few and/or too thin to stand up to the expected wear and tear (kitchen cabinets and drawers get a lot of use and abuse daily).
Good luck with your project and I hope everything turns out to your satisfaction! None of us like having to revisit a project, especially for refinishing, but sometimes we must to help protect the time, effort, and materials we have already invested into our project.
Other finishes, like polyurethane, are considerably safer (though still a fire risk from fumes if you do too much area without adequate ventilation) and water-based finishes are about as safe as can be but they can all require a bit more care applying in order to achieve the desired finish quality. With any finish, you will want to lay down a number of coats in order to improve endurance and add resistance to rub-through in the high use areas, but such is true of all topcoat finishes that must endure heavy wear. That your cabinets have worn through so quickly suggests the coats were likely too few and/or too thin to stand up to the expected wear and tear (kitchen cabinets and drawers get a lot of use and abuse daily).
Good luck with your project and I hope everything turns out to your satisfaction! None of us like having to revisit a project, especially for refinishing, but sometimes we must to help protect the time, effort, and materials we have already invested into our project.
I would love to use water based product but all the info I have read so far does not recommend using it over nitrocellulose lacquer. Have you had any experience doing that?
As far as spraying indoors, I would have no choice but to do that on the face frames and sides. The cabinets are installed and to remove them would be a major operation. Closing off the kitchen and putting a large fan in the window plus wearing a respirator is about all I could do. It is not something I look forward to doing. If I could go with a water based product I would definitely do so. Anybody had experience doing that?
As far as spraying indoors, I would have no choice but to do that on the face frames and sides. The cabinets are installed and to remove them would be a major operation. Closing off the kitchen and putting a large fan in the window plus wearing a respirator is about all I could do. It is not something I look forward to doing. If I could go with a water based product I would definitely do so. Anybody had experience doing that?
I am by no means an expert on nitrocellulose lacquers (so hopefully others will chime in soon), but given what I do I know of their major health issues I would make the major effort to move the cabinets outdoors for finishing (no fun, I realize). The fumes from most nitrocellulose lacquers are not really something that one wants anywhere near their family, much less themselves, as they are among the most toxic of all the finishing choices based upon my understanding and I am not sure that it is really practical to adequately ventilate a house effectively to make spraying within the house safe without very specialized gear (as well as specialized gear like SCBA if operating in confined spaces with inadequate ventilation while spraying). Sometimes we have to pay the piper, even when it may be painful, when we go back to fix a past mistake, such is just part of the learning process and often makes for some lasting memories that ensure we never make the same mistakes again (many of us have been there, so you are in great company).
The polyurethane finishes are much safer than nitrocellulose lacquers, but can still take a good while to finish flashing off and curing which may make for objectionable odors for a week or do after spraying indoors and require some ongoing ventilation depending upon sensitivity and how much surface area is sprayed at a time. They are still combustible fumes, so very good ventilation is very important if spraying much surface area in a given period of time and ventilation may need to persist for some time afterwards. Still not totally safe around family but nowhere near as harmful to health as the nitrocellulose lacquers. However, you would likely need to sand everything back down to a consistent state to get a consistent appearance across your cabinets, but polyurethane does provide the wood an often very pleasant ambering tint that gives the wood added warmth (something you do not get from water-based polyacryllic finishes, which are a much clearer coating). However, the water-based poly finishes are the only truly "safe" finishes in that they have no real health concerns from a fumes or explosion hazard, but they lack the often desirable ambering tint and so may require either a light tint coat (stains likely are not an option at this time unless you can fully sand down to bare wood since any remaining areas of old finish will inhibit even staining) or an initial coat of an amber shellac to recreate that amber tone then apply the water-based poly coats on top of that initial tinting coat.
Notrocellulose's main claim to fame in many respects is how very easily it lays down a nice smooth and even finish because it dries exceedingly rapidly (almost upon contact) unlike other finishes which leaves little time for dust or insects to settle in the finish as well as it's great whetting properties (low viscosity) which help it flow smoothly to form a great gloss finish (a great gloss finish is always a challenge since surface contamination while drying can spoil the mirror smooth finish, especially in high gloss finishes). This means that you will need to practice on scrap (sanded plywood as well as tempered Masonite/hardboard is a great initial practice option, as are old pieces of scrap wood identical in species/type to your actual project when ready to test any applied tints, if needed, for a more accurate sample test) before you tackle your actual project with a poly finish to ensure you have learned its traits and behaviour and to avoid laying it down too heavily so that you avoid runs (going a little light on each pass and adding an extra coat or two to make up that thickness later is much better than going too heavy as runs are a lot of work to repair after the fact). It will also give you a chance to get your spray gun dialed in optimally and gain some added confidence. Fortunately, the oil and water-based poly finishes are extremely durable finishes once layed down properly and allowed time to cure and harden over several weeks. A good solid four to five coat finish should hold up very well (provided your coats are not too thin, otherwise you will want several more) in even the heavy abuse areas for many years to come. If you really want to know how tough the poly finishes are, just try to remove a 4-5 coat finish after you have given it a few weeks to harden, it takes an amazing amount of very aggressive sanding to remove the poly from the wood, and even then there will still be poly that was absorbed into the wood further toughening the outer surface of the wood against abrasion. But there is a downside to poly finishes if your coats get too thick (or many in number) and that is that beyond a certain point the wood will begin to take on an increasingly plastic appearance from certain lighting angles, especially with gloss finishes, as plastic is essentially what poly really is. But it really does make for one very tough finish that is well worth learning to spray and finish with, especially for high wear type projects that will see a lot of use and abuse for years to come.
Whatever you ultimately do, I really do wish you all the best and hate to be the bearer of bad news but please be safe as well. With any luck some of our resident finishing experts will chime in soon to expand upon the discussion or add further advice or corrections based upon their own experiences (nitrocellulose is a finish that I have read up on a reasonable bit but never used as I use mostly oil and water based poly finishes along with stains and shellac). We should also have a few luthiers with a good deal more experience working with nitrocellulose lacquers as well who may add further insights.
Bottom line to make the cabinets look right and to not see a difference where the old finish was left and new sprayed on bare wood you should take the cabinets down, sand them to bare wood and spray a new finish. Any other way you will not be happy and will end up having to do it again for a third time.
I agree that taking them down and refinishing them is best but if it were my house that option would be too invasive. I would not attempt to respray in the house, I would shift to option b.
Remove the doors and drawers and 220 sand all the face frames and cabinet sides where exposed - I would hand sand with a block and a good vacuum. Do a color test with using General Finishes Enduro water-based urethane, I suspect it will will very close, if not adjust with some transient. Using a good brush apply a thin coat and then lightly sand with 320. Two more coats and you will be done. Dry time is quick and this product does not have too much smell - I would guess you would be done within a weekend
Remove the doors and drawers and 220 sand all the face frames and cabinet sides where exposed - I would hand sand with a block and a good vacuum. Do a color test with using General Finishes Enduro water-based urethane, I suspect it will will very close, if not adjust with some transient. Using a good brush apply a thin coat and then lightly sand with 320. Two more coats and you will be done. Dry time is quick and this product does not have too much smell - I would guess you would be done within a weekend
Phil, that sounds like the best idea to me. Forget the spraying for the cabinets inside and brush on water based poly. I would take the doors and drawers outside and spray them with that same finish. Taking the cabinets out would not be an option as it would destroy the tops (granite tile) and the crown mold and who knows what else before I was through. Plus the kitchen would be out of commission for several days (no sink, etc.).
I would tolerate small inconsistencies with the finish in order to avoid that. Thanks to all for the feedback.
Just to be sure, I am not suggesting that you use a water-based poly, which is the stuff the big box stores sell - There are about 10 different makes of WB poly, it is all garbage. Use the General Finishes Enduro WB urethane, vastly better than the other. It is more expensive but worth it
That is my plan. As I can see it is not cheap, but if it works and holds up over time it will be worth it. Thanks for the advice.
I read this on the General Finishes site about their Enduro WB urethane:
"Enduro-Var ADHERES WELL only over WATER STAINS, DYE STAINS, and RAW WOOD. It will adhere over an oil stain ONLY IF the stain is completely dry (minimum 4 days drying). Use Enduro-Var over any other surfaces at your own risk."
I am going to go over sanded nitrocellulose lacquer. Any experience using this over lacquer?
"Enduro-Var ADHERES WELL only over WATER STAINS, DYE STAINS, and RAW WOOD. It will adhere over an oil stain ONLY IF the stain is completely dry (minimum 4 days drying). Use Enduro-Var over any other surfaces at your own risk."
I am going to go over sanded nitrocellulose lacquer. Any experience using this over lacquer?
I have used it over lacquer with no problems, but now that you have nicely shown me this maybe I was just lucky. I believe a call to the tech folks at General Finishes would be in order. Please let us know what they say
Personally, I have never had a lacquer finish fail on me, with some pieces done 30+ years ago. It can happen if the finish was too thin, being not enough coats, or an incompatible wash coat was used. Also, if the sanding was too fine. That said, a non-catalyzed lacquer in a kitchen where a kettle may steaming underneath the cabinet will probably not be my first choice.
With respect to the manufacturer, I would not use a Fuji HVLP to spray lacquer.
You can use lacquer thinner to wipe down the areas prior to sanding down to 220. The thinner will remove even penetrated old finish and prepare the wood better. Use a proper respirator mask, with an organic filter when doing this work. You can buy one at Lowes for between $35-$40.
If the old finish started failing, putting anything over it will probably eventually fail as well.
Perhaps consider having the doors sprayed by a cabinet shop, who do this all the time. It will not be expensive.
For the frames, I would try and not move away from the original finish. Not sure how a post, or pre-cat would work with a brush, but a seal coat of Deft brushing lacquer, followed by another three coats will do the job. You can go as far as 400 sanding of the final coat to remove brush marks and follow up with a buffer and compound to get a 100% professional finish.
I agree with Phil, be careful about which water based finish you select. The brands carried by Lowes all ended up in my trash can, with a few cuss words thrown in. Also, don't let the low odor fool you, they need the use of a proper mask as well.
With respect to the manufacturer, I would not use a Fuji HVLP to spray lacquer.
You can use lacquer thinner to wipe down the areas prior to sanding down to 220. The thinner will remove even penetrated old finish and prepare the wood better. Use a proper respirator mask, with an organic filter when doing this work. You can buy one at Lowes for between $35-$40.
If the old finish started failing, putting anything over it will probably eventually fail as well.
Perhaps consider having the doors sprayed by a cabinet shop, who do this all the time. It will not be expensive.
For the frames, I would try and not move away from the original finish. Not sure how a post, or pre-cat would work with a brush, but a seal coat of Deft brushing lacquer, followed by another three coats will do the job. You can go as far as 400 sanding of the final coat to remove brush marks and follow up with a buffer and compound to get a 100% professional finish.
I agree with Phil, be careful about which water based finish you select. The brands carried by Lowes all ended up in my trash can, with a few cuss words thrown in. Also, don't let the low odor fool you, they need the use of a proper mask as well.
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Yes, there is a fish-like odor because it contains triethylamine and N-methyl-2-pyrollidinone (2.5%, 20% respectively) as solvents for the urethane resin. The water is primarily a carrier. Good ventilation is helpful if the odor is objectionable but don't get paranoid about it.
I have used waterbased finish's for years with no trouble. General finsh's Waterbased poly can be sprayed over lacquer with good adhesion so I would have no problem attempting Phils method with their Enduro line of products. These will actually get you a harder more water resistant finish than lacquer. As always try a test piece first. If test piece works I would sand spots and then spray them with a Rattle can of lacquer to bring colors closer together then respray entire surface with new product. I would also let the test piece cure for about a week to make sure there are no after affects
Rule of thumb in the finishing world, "Never put a harder finish over a softer finish".
I agree with the above. I do this professionally and would use a good finishing sander like a Festool. I get less dust with the ETS and Rotex sanders than I would sanding by hand. Garanat paper 80 grit with light pressue will take the lacquer off without clogging. General Finishes EnduroVar is not very compatible but the High Performance Poly is compatible. It now has a crosslinking additive as well as a UV inhibitor additive so I would recommend that. A job liek this would justify a Festool or Mirka sander if you don't have one.
When I do a job like this I clean with denatured alchohol and sand starting at 80 grit up to 180. Apply stain as needed. I also use their sanding sealer sometimes with 10% extender. I spray the drawer fronts and doors in the shop and use a foam pad to finish the face frames. I think spraying in the kitchen is an activity with diminsing returns... that's my opinion. I ad d10% extender to the finish as well. I live in CO and it is super dry causing the finish to set up really quickly. If you use a high quality foam brush (I get mine at Woodcraft) you will get a nice finish off a gun and almost as nice off of a pad.
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