Sorry if this next post is way too long. I tried to put links to the messages but that didn't work. I know that most of you will think I am making too much of this:slap: , but please humor me:lol:
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Privacy, Spam, Usergroups, etc
- Thread starter SteveColes
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I think we may have issue
I knew Rob was going to send a mass email in order to drum up interest in WNCWW. In the thread where he announced that he had sent it and got a good response, I asked him how he did it.
I knew Rob was going to send a mass email in order to drum up interest in WNCWW. In the thread where he announced that he had sent it and got a good response, I asked him how he did it.
McRabbet said:
Please notice my response. I then started thinking about a way we could create lists like that easier. In fact I stared to write a program where we enter zips and/or counties and auto generate a mailing list and then send out emails. after a while something clicked and I reread the bolded sentence above. Then I started the following exchange.SteveColes said:
SteveColes said:Ooh, ooh
I think we screwed up on sending emails to members for that wncww meeting. From one pov, private info (email address) was used for non- North Carolina Woodworker purposes. From another we Spammed 130 people.
No one has said anything, but ...
I didn't really think about it until just now.
We don't really have a Terms of service or an official privacy policy, but I think we just stepped on both, if I had taken the time to write the ones I have in my heard. Not sure what to do.:eusa_whis
McRabbet said:Re: Ooh, ooh
Steve -- It's not "we screwed up" -- it's "I screwed up" and I apologize!
I knew you had a policy on not sending more than 5 PM's at once -- the method I used preserved the privacy of every recipient's e-mail address and was sent only to NC WW members. Not one of them saw any other member's e-mail address except mine. I realize that some members have asked not to have e-mails sent from the site, so I chose to blind copy each recipient. Technically, it was unsolicited mail (i.e., spam). Members that send a PM to another member are also technically sending an unsolicited message, although I don't know of any case where such a message is considered spam -- it is site-related messaging and is very effective. It is awkward, however, to send PM's to larger numbers of members. I honestly thought it would be ok to use e-mail if address sharing was supressed. You are right and I should have cleared it with you first -- my bad.
But, why is this not an NC Woodworker effort? First, you helped us set up a group for the purpose of forming a club. We used the site to solicit people to join the group. Steve D, Ozzie-x and I have not sent this to any non-North Carolina Woodworker member and thus far, everyone has given me a positive opinion of our effort. Like the Triangle Woodworkers, we are promoting everything the site stands for -- NC Woodworking. I have not gotten any negative feedback from any of the WNCWW posts nor from this one e-mail message. I'll purge the e-mail address list if you tell me to, but it would be difficult to contact people by sending out 26 different PM's with hand-entered names for every recipient (unless there is something I don't know, PM's do not support group addressing). How does the TWA group get info through the site to those group members? Maybe we need to establish how or if groups within the site can exchange messages like this. In the "for-what-it's-worth-department", I have gotten 2 people to say they will attend the kickoff meeting from the Site Thread and 14 from the e-mail message. E-mail is really very effective.
I'm open to suggestions and apologize if I've mis-used the information on the site. I hope you know that my intentions were very positive and not for any personal gain. And, I'm sorry if I've put you in any level of discomfort, especially considering how much you've done for all of us. If I've abused policy, I can take my medicine -- I am sorry if I've abused your trust.
Rob
SteveColes said:Re: Ooh, ooh
First of all, don't need to apologize. I thought it was a great idea. In no way do I feel you abused any trust. If I didn't give explicit permission, then I certainly gave implicit permission. In fact, the reason I asked how you did it was I wanted to see if I could come up with a faster way:roll:
All the points you raised are good ones. Especially how does a user group communicate. The only way the system provides is via a private or semi-private forum. Perhaps, I misunderstood something. If you sent out 26 emails, were all of these people already in wncww user group. If so, then there is no issue. But, if they weren't, then it may be.
Another issue may be that you couldn't have compiled that list if you didn't have admin privileges.
First of all don't destroy the list. Second, let me sleep on this a bit.
I'm tired and in a bit pain and I doubt that I'm thinking clearly.
We may want to bring up this in the admin/mod forum. Not as a specific event, but more as general issue.
One thing I am sure, is that I have to write up a terms of service and a privacy policy. So what ever we decide, we are all on the same page.
Finally, please believe me when I say that I wrote the PM to you just to let you know I have concerns not as any form admonishment
There are in my head a lot of issues that this brings up and I would really like you guys to discuss this.
SteveColes said:
McRabbet said:
Well, that was a long post, but it made more sense than the one with the links in it:lol:
A while ago I sent out a mass PM'ing to many selected members. I entered them one by one and sent them in groups of five. I chose not to use e-mail because not everyone had their e-mail listed in their public profile. I feel that the e-mail addresses used for registration should be kept private as they are assumed to be. I do agree that a way to mass PM would be a great help, the ones I sent out took about an hour to do :eusa_doh: My .02,
Dave
A while ago I sent out a mass PM'ing to many selected members. I entered them one by one and sent them in groups of five. I chose not to use e-mail because not everyone had their e-mail listed in their public profile. I feel that the e-mail addresses used for registration should be kept private as they are assumed to be. I do agree that a way to mass PM would be a great help, the ones I sent out took about an hour to do :eusa_doh: My .02,
Dave
Hmm...........good comments from both Rob and Dave. I know Rob's intent was to promote the WNCWW among members and I fully concur with the way he did it since he only sent it to folks that are already members of NCWW. On the other hand Dave brings up a good point about private email addresses folks use for registration and their assumption that their email address will remain private. Dave also brings up a good idea about making it easier to send out mass PMs to more than 5 members at a time. Here is my spin on Dave's idea:
Maintain the current policy of general members to send PMs to up to 5 members at one time. Create an option that would allow a member to request a PM they create be sent out to a larger group of members. I see this working by creating the PM and it sending via a "request for service" type message to the board were an Admin or Mod could then distribute it to the target audience. The would be similar to using distribution lists (DLs) that are set up by many businesses. The Request for service and have some options to select such as Zip Code, range of Zip Codes, county, Specific counties, etc.
Just my 2 cents.
D L
Maintain the current policy of general members to send PMs to up to 5 members at one time. Create an option that would allow a member to request a PM they create be sent out to a larger group of members. I see this working by creating the PM and it sending via a "request for service" type message to the board were an Admin or Mod could then distribute it to the target audience. The would be similar to using distribution lists (DLs) that are set up by many businesses. The Request for service and have some options to select such as Zip Code, range of Zip Codes, county, Specific counties, etc.
Just my 2 cents.
D L
Rather than offer advice, I have some questions:
Q. Doesn't most email programs target emails as spam unless the sender is in the recipients address book?
Q. Would it have been more appropriate to have those interested in becoming members of the WNCWW send you (Rob) their email address so they would have known before hand that their email address was being used.
I'm not sure I totally understand Steve's concerns but am interested in finding out.
And finally, I get all kind of spam even though I have a spam blocker and just take it with a grain of salt. At least I don't get the porn stuff anymore.:eusa_clap
Q. Doesn't most email programs target emails as spam unless the sender is in the recipients address book?
Q. Would it have been more appropriate to have those interested in becoming members of the WNCWW send you (Rob) their email address so they would have known before hand that their email address was being used.
I'm not sure I totally understand Steve's concerns but am interested in finding out.
And finally, I get all kind of spam even though I have a spam blocker and just take it with a grain of salt. At least I don't get the porn stuff anymore.:eusa_clap
I'm sorry about the porn, would you like me to forward you some:rolf:mshel said:
Just to see if I can get this discussion going, here some random thoughts that are related to my concerns.
Items that the average user would assume is private unless they choose to reveal it
Note vBulletin has no way to show the email address, even if the user chooses the option to allow email to be sent. VBulletin acts as a proxy.
Define SPAM.
What is the difference between a mass emailing and a mass PMing
Each of us has 2 personas on this site. First and foremost, we are regular users just like everyone else. 90% of our posts, PMs, etc are in the regular user persona. In that persona we should not have any more power or knowledge than the regular user.
A usergroup leader is just a regular user not an admin or mod. (unless of course we decide differently.)
Items that the average user would assume is private unless they choose to reveal it
email address
ZIP?
contents of PMs
ip address
passwords
All are visible(with the exception of passwords) to admins and perhaps some mods.ZIP?
contents of PMs
ip address
passwords
Note vBulletin has no way to show the email address, even if the user chooses the option to allow email to be sent. VBulletin acts as a proxy.
Define SPAM.
What is the difference between a mass emailing and a mass PMing
Each of us has 2 personas on this site. First and foremost, we are regular users just like everyone else. 90% of our posts, PMs, etc are in the regular user persona. In that persona we should not have any more power or knowledge than the regular user.
A usergroup leader is just a regular user not an admin or mod. (unless of course we decide differently.)
I see and understand Steve's point. Rob's use of what could be considered restricted or proprietary information could be considered misuse.
Being I work for the telephone company I have seen lots of examples of similar scenarios. One for example is retrieving an unlisted phone number and using it regardless of how innocent or legitimate it is a serious offense and will cause termination.
This site isn't a corporation, but I guess it needs to be considered what is appropriate to do and what is not. There is no doubt of Rob's intentions being good and what he did being legitimate, but is it appropriate is the question, and what guidelines should admins, mods, and Steve be held to for having access to personal information?
I don't think Rob's email could be construed as SPAM if I remember correctly. When I used to manage an Internet services group the rules for us were if it was unsolicited commercial email. True it was unsolicited, but it was not for commercial or business purposes.
BTW, I get lots of porn, mortgage, viagra, sexual organ enlargements, etc on my company email. I must be on every spam list ever built.
Being I work for the telephone company I have seen lots of examples of similar scenarios. One for example is retrieving an unlisted phone number and using it regardless of how innocent or legitimate it is a serious offense and will cause termination.
This site isn't a corporation, but I guess it needs to be considered what is appropriate to do and what is not. There is no doubt of Rob's intentions being good and what he did being legitimate, but is it appropriate is the question, and what guidelines should admins, mods, and Steve be held to for having access to personal information?
I don't think Rob's email could be construed as SPAM if I remember correctly. When I used to manage an Internet services group the rules for us were if it was unsolicited commercial email. True it was unsolicited, but it was not for commercial or business purposes.
BTW, I get lots of porn, mortgage, viagra, sexual organ enlargements, etc on my company email. I must be on every spam list ever built.
Thank you, that's is a potentially clarifing distinction that I could live with if everyone else agrees.Travis Porter said:
Insom, would you please ring in here on any or all of the items. You've been my internet conscience :eusa_naug since this site began.:lol:
SteveColes said:
LOL!!! That's a sad state of affairs, then... the blind leading the blind!!! :lol:
Yea, I have read through all of this and I didn't really see too much harm in any of it. In essence what Rob did was harvest e-mail addresses from this site's database. He was trying to drum up interest in his own group (of which I consider myself a member, incidentally). Although it was presumably conceived in large part because of this site, this group is not the same as North Carolina Woodworker. I expect that as word spreads, it will ultimately include members who are not a part of North Carolina Woodworker. Harvesting e-mail addresses like this is exactly what any group of this sort would love to do... after all, you can't define a more specific targeted list of people who live in NC who are interested in woodworking! Unless you tapped into, say, Woodcraft's e-mail list!!! 8-O
Spam is unsolicited email of any sort - it is almost always marketing for some sort of profit, but sometimes other reasons (chain letters, urban legends, etc). I think that an e-mail like Rob sent would be considered by most NOT to fall under that category. A problem might arise if 5 or 6 other local-interest groups start doing the same thing...
FWIW, I like DL's idea of members being able to request a mass-PM if they want to, or even a mass e-mail... as long as it's only ONE e-mailing. The member doens't get the list of email addresses - the message would come directly from North Carolina Woodworker, blinded. The message sent out would only be a "generating interest" kind of thing - if people want to join, they can submit their e-mail directly to the soliciting member, who will then maintain their OWN mailing list. You can have some sort of disclaimer in the membership agreement, that messages of this type may be received from time to time. You could even have an "opt out", although I think that would complicate matters more than necessary.
Another reason I think Steve raised an issue - why it just may not "feel right" - is that Rob used his Admin access to harvest these e-mails for non-North Carolina Woodworker related activity. Someone who is not an Admin could not do this... they just don't have access to the database like that. So... should WE as ADMINS have that kind of privilege? (I am NOT being critical of Rob... he just made an example of himself!!!
)Geez, how many run-on sentences can I make in one morning?!?!? I need more coffee. :-?
insomniac said:
Thanks Monty, you did a better job clarifying what I was trying to say with my proposal above. At least if we went this route we could ensure that the request mass email message was moderated prior to being sent so we could ensure it met established guidelines (whatever those end up being). I also like the idea of the "opt out" option. At least that way I have the option of keeping Rob's spam out of my in-box.:lol:
D L
I agree that this instance was completely harmless and handled appropriately by Rob given the circumstances. It does; however, bring up the potential problems that could result if someone slightly more evil than Rob were involved. :evil: I think the ideas put forward by Monty and DL are sound and opting out would be nice if it isn't complicated. The problem with PM's is that they only reach people when they visit the site or if they have email notification. Can PM's have attachments? If not, that would be another potential drawback. Other than that, mass PM's could be very helpful.
All Usergroup Leaders now have the ability to bulk PM the members of their user groups. I just Bulked PM'd all usergroup leaders:eusa_danc
PMs Have attachments:eusa_thin
PMs Have attachments:eusa_thin
Not gonna happen, I'm afraid. But there are several ways to indiirectly fill the need.SteveColes said:
Private upload & download area on server for each user group. Leaders have ftp privilages. Use a link in PM to file.
Private Upload & download area in the download library with or with links in PM
Private Forum for user group.
M
McRabbet
I would think the first or second option are the more manageable for you and for us -- a Private forum could easily get to be a moderation challenge. I've used FTP before to manage a website I ran several years ago and it should straight forward for us to move documents, pictures or PDF files related to group events or activities. Overall, I'd favor the group upload/download library option, which will be easier if group members simply needed group access and group leaders got a special priviledge mask (Leaders would need moderation privs to manage those files). As long as we could link to those easily in a PM, it sounds like a great solution.
Rob
Rob
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