Kitchen Cabinets. Over my head?

[cc4digital]

The other 1/2 allowed me to make a few nice purchases recently. Table Saw, Jointer, Router Table and 3hp Routner. :eusa_danc
Now, that I have started ordering the above items the catch has been reveiled:crybaby2:
She want the whole kitchen redone by June 2007.:cry:
Well, I have done amature projects, but this will be a biggy. The only good thing is I have 6 months :icon_thum

So, hopefully between a little advice and reading many books on the subject I will satisfy her.

Some need information

• Kitchen is only 160sqft 10 feet of upper cabinets and 15 feet of lower cabinets.
• She wants a really light wood look. Almost white wash
• She is favoring Maple wood, but I favor White Birch
• The current cabinets need to be replace due to water damage that happend a couple of year ago.
• My budget is between $5000-$10,000 :eusa_danc

Knowing the above I will ask a couple of questions to get me started.

1) I am making the cabinets from scratch. My choices are MDF, ParticalBoard, Plywood. My thought was 3/4 MDF with 1/8 or 1/4 Birch Vaneer for the inside of the boxes. :eusa_pray Any suggestions???

2) A little bit ahead of the game with this quesiton, but to stain birch a lighter color am I asking for a major head ache.? {I read a few articals about how hard it is to STAIN Birch, I could use Walnet, but it $}

Thanks as always.:icon_thum

Chuck

 

[skysharks]

Stay completely away from MDF!!!!

I have built allot of cabinets, and have had to repair allot of cabinets.

MDF has it's applications, but in my opinion it has no business in a kitchen or bathroom enviroment.

the big guys will use a MDF core that is wrapped in RTF. But this is completely wrapped on all 6 sides. I have even seen these fail.

If your going to build your own cabinets, then stick with furniture grade ply and solid wood.

Just my opinion.

MAC

 

[NCPete]

I'll second John's opinion. With your kind of budget, there should be no reason to buy MDF or particleboard. Furniture grade plywoods and solid wood for the faceframes, doors and drawers would be my choice.

 

[Travis Porter]

I agree with John. If you don't have the stuff to do veneering, and stuff it is tough. Line up all your hardware in advance. Euro hinges are very nice and easy to use. Determine if you are going framed or frameless, lay out your drawers, doors, lazy susans, everything in advance. Know what size your stove, refrigerator, etc all are. There are "standards" but depending on what you use, mileage may vary.

Personally, I like to build them as units and tie them together. For the bases, I make the separate and install them full run.

 

[Bernhard]

Well, I guess I have to disagree. MDF is a good choice for certain applications. Frameless kitchen cabinets is one of them.

I think MDF is getting a undeserved bad rap. MDF is stable, machines easy, is available with every veneer/melamine covering, it is an ideal substrate for veneer/melamine/HPL's . It is actually well suited for building "boxes". Of course, it is not intended to be used for fine furniture.

Yes, it does have drawbacks: very heavy (but can buy light weight MDF), needs to be protected from water (so does plywood). Not as strong (bending stresses, but can be easily overcome with proper design).


...anyway just my 2 cents

Bernhard

PS I am building my kitchen (frameless construction) based on MDF substrate. Boxes are MDF/white melamine on the inside with solid edging (maple), doors are MDF with solid edging, then I will lay up and veneer (maple). The kitchen is a contemporary design, so I need absulutly stable and flat material = MDF.

 

[McRabbet]

Chuck, I'll have to side with the plywood method as well. I would recommend using good quality Maple plywood and Maple lumber for the doors and face frames (I prefer face frame construction). And do yourself a big favor. Take the Woodguy1975 (John Richards) cabinetmaking class the next time it is available, November 11-12th! John will illustrate an excellent method for every part of your cabinet making project and you and LOYL will be happy that you did. I have made many cabinets and I still learned plenty when I took his class earlier this year.

Rob

 

[junquecol]

Beg, borrow,or steal (buy?) a copy of Danny's Prpoulx's book " Build Your Own Kitchen Cabinets". This is a "coffee table book" with LOTS of color pictures. He includes a cutting diagram for both 5/8 and 3/4 material. His system gives you the look of face frames, whle allowing the use of Euro hardware. A couple of issues back, Fine Woodworking had an article of efficent cabinet building. It is also in their book that is in borgs- 225 Tips. If you are doing anything other than flat panel doors, you may want to buy them. This will save you lots of time. With all those new toys, you might want to get a copy of John White's book "Care and Repair of Shop Machines." Look in an up coming issue of Fine Homebuilding/ Fine Woodworking for my tip on hanging uppers. If you are going to drill holes for adj. shelves, send me a PM.

 

[jeff...]

2) A little bit ahead of the game with this quesiton, but to stain birch a lighter color am I asking for a major head ache.? {I read a few articals about how hard it is to STAIN Birch, I could use Walnet, but it $}

Thanks as always.:icon_thum

Chuck

Chuck, I've never used wood bleach, so I can't offer any advise. I've seen the results on southern yellow pine (not MDF or Ply) it really does lighten the wood. I would think someone on this site would have some comments or experience with the product, good or bad. Pesonally I'm not into wetting wood with anything but a finsh, but sometime you just gotta do what you gotta do. Project: Wood Bleach

It's almost sounding to me like what your really looking for is American Holly, it's a very light, almost white wood. You may want to have a look at it here Exotic Wood holly and here Plant Information Center - NC Trees - American Holly I haven't investigated if holly veneer plywood is available. I'm pretty sure you could find holly veneer fairly easy. Kyle may have kiln dried Holly lumber available - check with him and see.

You could also do a white glaze finish too.

I guess what I'm trying to say is there are a lot of options for what your looking at doing.


Thanks

 

[Gofor]

The only thing I would add is that you may want to take the time to build one proto-type out of cheaper ply (arauco or sand-ply) and poplar to get the techniques down and identify what jigs, special tools, etc you might need. You can always put it in your shop or garage.
It will help work out any design flaws or assembly sequence errors before you use the more expensive materials and will improve your confidence. Some questions you will want to answer are:
Do I dado with the table saw/dado cutter or use my router?
If I use 5/8's ply, will the forstner bit pilot tip go through the face when I drill for European hinges?
Will I glue on the face frames or use pocket screws?
Why do I park on the driveway and drive on the parkway?

IMHO, a little practice can go a long way.

Go

 

[cc4digital]

skysharks, NCPete>> Thanks for the feedback. Orginally I was leaning toward plywood. I do agree that plywood is better, but I just was thinking mdf would be easier. Thanks for your feedback.
Travis Porter>>Yes, I have read horor stories about picking your hardware at the end of the project. For sure I will pick my hardware before I start :eusa_clap Thanks for the good point
Bernhard>>Funny you are kinda going down the same road with the same possible spiecies of wood. I thank you for the feedback. Before your post, I was thinking it was not used and I read bad information. Looks like it kinda a personal preferance. With that said, I might go back to the plywood this time. Thanks for the objective feedback
McRabbet>>Thank you for the information
junquecol>>I already have that cabinet book. Great book! I will check out your other suggestions, too. Thanks for the research information.
junquecol>>Thanks for the great informaiton regarding staining. This is a big issue in the back of my mind. That is why I am learning about it now. Gives me 6 months to really do some good testing on sample boards.
Gofor>>I agree and will proto-type more than just one. As you said, my garage and pet room can all use some cabinets. Can always paint them if I really mess up. Thanks

TO ALL>>Thank you again for your great posts. This is helping me quite a bit. :qgreenjum

 

[rhett]

Having built many a kitchen, let me throw in my 2 cents. I suggest you build face frame cabinets using prefinished 3/4 ply for your boxes. It will save you alot of headaches and finish time. Approx. 65$ sheet at horizon You might also want to think about purchasing the doors. I know this spits in the face of diy woodworking, but an entire kitchen worth of doors is no small feet for someone just starting, not to imply that you couldn't. Also allow scribe room past wall cabinets to allow for out of square walls, they will be. On another note since you are on a budget I have enough old style blum tandems to outfit a kitchen and would be willing to let them go cheap. This is only b/c I have switched to using blum motion. Good luck there are alot of helpful people here, use us as a resource.

 

[chris99z71]

I'll throw a second pitch in for Woodguy's cabinet class. His techinique is bulletproof. His hints about material and hardware selection are priceless. It will definately be money well spent.


Edit: Whoops. Didn't realize that you're in California.

 

[cc4digital]

Actually I am moving out to NC. So, I noted the class in my notes and will look it up when I get there.
chuck

 

[DavidF]

Well, I guess I have to disagree. MDF is a good choice for certain applications. Frameless kitchen cabinets is one of them.

I think MDF is getting a undeserved bad rap. MDF is stable, machines easy, is available with every veneer/melamine covering, it is an ideal substrate for veneer/melamine/HPL's . It is actually well suited for building "boxes". Of course, it is not intended to be used for fine furniture.

Yes, it does have drawbacks: very heavy (but can buy light weight MDF), needs to be protected from water (so does plywood). Not as strong (bending stresses, but can be easily overcome with proper design).


...anyway just my 2 cents

Bernhard

PS I am building my kitchen (frameless construction) based on MDF substrate. Boxes are MDF/white melamine on the inside with solid edging (maple), doors are MDF with solid edging, then I will lay up and veneer (maple). The kitchen is a contemporary design, so I need absulutly stable and flat material = MDF.

I have to agree, MDF is the "Dogs" (a good thing!) as far as I am concerned, especially for a contemporary kitchen. Having said that, pre-veneered, good quality ply is probably what I would use on the cabs, but lipped MDF for the doors if going for a more modern look.

 

[NCPete]

Those are good features of MDF, and I sell plenty of furniture made using MDF. perhaps my concern comes from seeing what happens to the stuff I sell, after having been exposed to moistures because it is rarely sealed on all six sides? MDF is comparable to maple in hardness, and plenty easy to machine, and what I used for a bookcase in my son's room.

 

[jeff...]

Most of the store bought case goods I see nowadays are made up of veneer over an MDF core with plastic trim. It's very rare I see a real piece of wood except for glue or corner blocks. Most dinning room furniture is still made up of real wood though, but you'll be hard pressed to find a top nowadays made from solid wood, unless it's made up of ultra cheap wood.

I'm leaning with Bernard on this one, veneer over MDF with solid wood faces seems the way to go. Perhaps my biggest reason is all those panel glue-ups you would have to do. The pantry I made for my wife is 100% panel glue-up and man that was a freaking PITA and seemed like it took forever and a day to glue up enough panels. I really could not imagine gluing up enough panels for a kitchen full of cabinets 8-O.

My only concern with MDF is when it gets wet, we all know MDF and water don't mix. Do they make a water proof MDF or is there anything you can do to seal it prior to laying down the veneer?

 

[skysharks]

Ply verus MDF debate.
This could go on for a while.
Obeservations that I have made.
I used to work for Lowe's as a subcontrator installing kitchens and bathrooms.
What I found out during my time as a sub, was that off the shelf/store bought cabinets, were mostly made up of compressed wood panels with a paper look like wood veneer. Or like some have said, MDF core wrapped in a RTF or wood veneer.
I have had to repair plenty of these and seen what these look like after being in a well used kitchen or bathroom.
It's not a pretty site. Both products, once water has penetrated to the edges of course swells and separates. Let heat get near the MDF wrapped with RTF(Ridge therma foil) then ouch nasty looking.
I always told myself that if I was to ever build cabinets that I would stay away from these products.
Don't get me wrong, I do use MDF, but not for fine cabinetry. It is easy to work with and does mill nicely.
I have entered into older Kitchens that have solid wood face frames and doors with plywood boxes, and been at amazed at how good they still look and still just as sturdy as the day they were built.
I can't say that for the cabinets that come off of the shelf now a days.
Nothing wears like solid wood.
All custom cabinets and high end purchased cabinets are manufactured with solid wood face frames and doors, boxes made from good quaility ply.
with most having dovetail drawers.
If you are going to take the time to build yourself a good quaility cabinet, then dont use poor quaility materials.
Yeah I can't compete with the big cabinet manufacturers and their prices, but my cabinets wont be falling apart do to srews pulling out of press wood sides, or easily affected by a plumbing leak, or when and if the surface of the veneer some how gets compromised.
Sorry for the long rant, but this subject has long been peeve of mine.
To many times I have had to walk into a families home to look at a distraught wife/husband, that, had they gone with solid wood cabinetry wouldn't be looking at several hundreds of dollars of repair work as the result of inferior materials.

Oh there is a water resistant MDF it is called MDEX. Used by outdoor sign makers.

I do use MDF as a substrate for my custom counter tops, but in the joints I seal all edges and especially around the sink and dishwasher areas up underneath.

 

[edcox]

Well, I might as well give my .02 cents worth. I would not use MDF except maybe for shop cabinets. Too heavy, doesn't hold screws well and just not for a cabinet that you are going to be looking at every day for years. Use a cabinet grade plywood with hardwood face frames. Don't know where you live but in NC, Steve Wall Lumber (walllumber.com) sells 4X8 sheets of cabinet grade maple @ $55.00/sheet and they also have quantity discounts. I would recommend Woodworkers Hardware (woodworkershardware.com) for pulls and handles. I just finished a cabinet and bought all hardware there. As an example, at the local Rockler store the identical pulls i used were $13.00 each. Woodworkers Hardware had the same brand for $3.67 each. You didn't mention finishing but you might want to check out the Nov/Dec issue of Fine Woodworking. They have an excellent article comparing water based finishes. Hope this helps.

 

[mkepke]

If you're planning on traditional cabinets, I'll also vote for plywood and hardwood frames and door.

I would stick to a light coloured common domestic (maple) and finish with a clear water-based finish. Skip staining/bleaching - you don't need to add *that* learning curve into this project.

If contemporary, what Berhard describes works great. Sheets of melanine covered MDF, frameless cabinets, Euro hinges and edge-banding the cabinets and doors in a contrasting solid wood will make short work of the project.

-Mark

 

[woodguy1975]

Actually I am moving out to NC. So, I noted the class in my notes and will look it up when I get there.
chuck

I look forward to having you by when you get down here. :icon_thum:icon_thum:icon_thum

BTW guys, I can still squeeze one more guy in the cabinetmaking class next weekend.