Hex Drive Socket Cap Bolts for outdoor project

AllanD

Allan
Corporate Member
When I have needed bolts, especially stainless or other specialties, I have ordered them (in order) from Amazon, McMaster Carr, or Bolt Depot. I only go to Fastenal when I need them that day. I will put a plug in for McMaster and their shipping policy. We all know how we can often get stuff from Amazon the same day or next day but when I order from McMaster I have several times got the order the next day (from Atlanta I think) through UPS and at the standard shipping rate.
 

Hmerkle

Board of Directors, Development Director
Hank
Staff member
Corporate Member
I am going to apologize first to all the people I will likely offend with what I am about to say.

ONLY use Fastenal as a last resort! PLEASE!
You are "feeding the beast" Much like we disparage the big box stores, Fastenal is much the same.
They are solely responsible for killing a LOT of small businesses.

Especially in this case where jgt has access to marine grade fasteners in or near his back yard since he is close to the coast, there are a BUNCH of people that are likely to be happy to help with his request.
Those of us who are more inland, may have a more difficult time "locally sourcing" products like stainless fasteners and then Fastenal should be a choice in the list, but they hire poorly equipped people and do little to train them for the job they are doing and over charge for the product and "service" (if you can call it that)

Now there are bright spots, I have used Fastenal in various places and found competent people, but unfortunately they don't last long since someone recognizes and pulls them "up the ladder" and out of serving people!
 

jgt1942

John
User
OK I placed the order with BoltDepot.com
24 pieces#27268 Tap bolts, Stainless steel 316, 1/4"-20 x 3-1/2"$2.05$49.20
101 pieces#16008 Hex nylon insert lock nuts, Stainless steel 316, 1/4"-20$19.45/100$19.64
100 pieces#16040 Fender washers, Stainless steel 316, 1/4" x 1-1/4"$27.26/100$27.26

I did check the Fastenal site using the link provided by Matt. Just looking at the bolts I needed it would be $100 and they did not have the 3 1/2" I needed.

I ordered the 316 deck screws ( 2 3/8") from Home Depot, they were much less expensive than other sources ($126 for 700 screws). This quantity is much than I need for this project but I have other outdoor projects.
 

jgt1942

John
User
I wish I would have known you were looking at the different Stainless grades.
Normally I would say you are find with the 18-8 stainless (300 grade -304, 305 etc.)

BUT since you are on the coast and might see salt corrosion - you may want to upgrade to 316 as it seems you have done.

My suggestion - run a test - buy some of the 305 and some of the 316 and put them into the wood as you would for your outdoor furniture and put them (out back somewhere) to see in months or after a year what impact your enviroment has on them, you might be surprised...
Hank, Great suggestion. In that I have some deck screws 305 grade, some regular outdoor deck screws and will be receiving 316 in a few days I can create a test. Thanks for the suggestion.
 

Hmerkle

Board of Directors, Development Director
Hank
Staff member
Corporate Member
Hank, Great suggestion. In that I have some deck screws 305 grade, some regular outdoor deck screws and will be receiving 316 in a few days I can create a test. Thanks for the suggestion.
Love to know the results.
 

jgt1942

John
User
Bummer, the screws I ordered from HD turned out to be trim screws that have very small heads. Today I talked to HD customer service, setup a return, and ordered the correct screws. BTW the correct screws was more expensive e.g. $98.64 for 400 screws. This will be more than enough and provide extras for other outdoor projects.
 

jgt1942

John
User
I've seen a few recommendations for Torx head screws, finding the sizes normally used on decks is rather easy but I'm having a problem finding smaller screws for outdoor projects. I'm looking for 1/2", 5/8", 3/4", 1" for outdoor projects in pound or 5 pound quanities. Any suggestions?

I'm also looking for pocked screws for outdoor projects. Most likely I will be using 3/4" to 2" thick wood for these projects.
 

Wilsoncb

Williemakeit
Corporate Member
I’ve had the same problem finding smaller wood screws at the big box stores. For the short screws you might have to go to a stainless Phillips head. McMaster Carr have some Torx round head, but it’s really a sheet metal screw. Depending on how it is used it probably wouldn’t matter.

For pocket screws, Kreg Blue-Kote are for outdoor use. Kreg also has a SS pocket screw, but it has a smaller head on it.
 

Hjanes

Harlan
User
Needed a rare (to me) metric bolt recently and found it in three grades at Bolt Depot. Quick service. Also have found non-standrd solutions at Jamestown Distributors.
 

smallboat

smallboat
Corporate Member
OK I've given up on the barrel (sex) nuts and bolts. I went to boltdepot.com and ended up using the Chat, Chris was SUPER helpful.
I will order the 316 deck screws from HD, 2-3/8 in. 316 Stainless Steel Trimhead Deck Screw (700-Count) for $126

Thanks for all the help. I've not talled the total cost for the project but I'm somewhere between $200 and $300 (I think). I will talley the total (maybe) just to see what the cost is. I think my grandson also wants a similar table. "IF" I make him one I will use the redwood I have and not apply the epoxy.
you’ve put a lot of thought and planning into this, so you may have thought of this already.
since you have already sealed the wood with epoxy, you will be breaking that barrier everywhere you drill for a screw.
moisture can get in these spots and then be trapped in the wood with no way to breathe out as the surfaces are sealed.
usually I would use a marine bedding compound in the hole as I assemble, or if time allows swab the inside of bolt holes with epoxy, let it soak in and cure. If its a penetrating epoxy it won’t change the ID of the hole. Not sure how the tabletop epoxy will do it that regard.

The WEST System site has a lot of project articles for things in addition to boats. You might find some useful info there. They also had the WEST System manual available as a PDF. A great resource for epoxy applications. Primarily boats, but a lot of the structural details and processes can be adapted
 

BeachBoy1942

BeachBoy
User
If you are in Charlotte area you may want to check with Fastener Supply 13410 South Ridge Drive. Always been able to find what I needed.
 

jgt1942

John
User
you’ve put a lot of thought and planning into this, so you may have thought of this already.
since you have already sealed the wood with epoxy, you will be breaking that barrier everywhere you drill for a screw.
moisture can get in these spots and then be trapped in the wood with no way to breathe out as the surfaces are sealed.
usually I would use a marine bedding compound in the hole as I assemble, or if time allows swab the inside of bolt holes with epoxy, let it soak in and cure. If its a penetrating epoxy it won’t change the ID of the hole. Not sure how the tabletop epoxy will do it that regard.

The WEST System site has a lot of project articles for things in addition to boats. You might find some useful info there. They also had the WEST System manual available as a PDF. A great resource for epoxy applications. Primarily boats, but a lot of the structural details and processes can be adapted
Yes, breaking the epoxy seal is a bummer. I did not think this through enough. In my next project I will attempt to install all screws from the bottom and possibly use pocket screws where the screw required would be too long if installed at a 90 degree angle. Another option would be to apply epoxy to each screwhead. This project turned out to be super expensive (around $400 - $550) and VERY long expanding to several weeks while I waited for the epoxy to fully cure and sometimes the project got delayed due to other higher priorities.

One of the local cities recently replaced a floating dock. I was able to talk to the guy that originally installed the dock 25 years ago. Stainless steel 316 grade screws and nails were used. SS 316 is commonly referred to as marine grade. I was shocked to see how well the screws and nails had helt up. They looked almost new and after removing about 300 NONE showed any signs of rust or damage from the salt air. He also used pressure treated wood, I think the grade was 2.5 whereas the pressure treated wood from the big box store is grade 0.7. The top boards suffered the most and would require replacement but all of the boards that were NOT exposed to the sun looked great for the the most part. The main failure of the old dock was (1) the floats used (2) boards exposed to the sun , (3) boards damaged due to boats hitting the dock.

The guy (e.g. the guy that built the deck) stated that the square head SS 316 were made in the US and in the time period of 1990 til 2005 he could always get them. In 2005 the US source dried up and he purchased Torx head screws (he thinks they were made in China) which were labeled SS 316 but they did not hold up as well and the square head SS screws he previously used. I failed to ask how long they lasted before he saw issues with the Torx head screws.

I have found a source (Guy C. Lee Building Materials) for pressure treated wood with the grade rating of 2.5 and will use it for my outdoor projects when using pressure treated wood. I have not priced the new wood, but plan to do so in the near future.
 

Gotcha6

Dennis
Staff member
Corporate Member
25 years ago, the common wood treatment was CCA, and it was produced in 3 grades; ground contact (.25), in ground use (.40), and marine grade - in water (.60). It was discontinued because of the arsenic leaching into surrounding soils. A local high school had to have their bleacher area decontaminated because of it. ACQ treatment ratings are respectively, H3, H4, & H5. Not sure where the originall installer got his treatment info.
HTH
 

smallboat

smallboat
Corporate Member
Yes, breaking the epoxy seal is a bummer. I did not think this through enough. In my next project I will attempt to install all screws from the bottom and possibly use pocket screws where the screw required would be too long if installed at a 90 degree angle. Another option would be to apply epoxy to each screwhead. This project turned out to be super expensive (around $400 - $550) and VERY long expanding to several weeks while I waited for the epoxy to fully cure and sometimes the project got delayed due to other higher priorities.

One of the local cities recently replaced a floating dock. I was able to talk to the guy that originally installed the dock 25 years ago. Stainless steel 316 grade screws and nails were used. SS 316 is commonly referred to as marine grade. I was shocked to see how well the screws and nails had helt up. They looked almost new and after removing about 300 NONE showed any signs of rust or damage from the salt air. He also used pressure treated wood, I think the grade was 2.5 whereas the pressure treated wood from the big box store is grade 0.7. The top boards suffered the most and would require replacement but all of the boards that were NOT exposed to the sun looked great for the the most part. The main failure of the old dock was (1) the floats used (2) boards exposed to the sun , (3) boards damaged due to boats hitting the dock.

The guy (e.g. the guy that built the deck) stated that the square head SS 316 were made in the US and in the time period of 1990 til 2005 he could always get them. In 2005 the US source dried up and he purchased Torx head screws (he thinks they were made in China) which were labeled SS 316 but they did not hold up as well and the square head SS screws he previously used. I failed to ask how long they lasted before he saw issues with the Torx head screws.

I have found a source (Guy C. Lee Building Materials) for pressure treated wood with the grade rating of 2.5 and will use it for my outdoor projects when using pressure treated wood. I have not priced the new wood, but plan to do so in the near future.
I wouldn’t put epoxy in the screw holes. You’d never get it apart if you need to replace something, plus it’s expensive and would slow you down a lot. The bedding compound I mentioned is meant for this use. It seals against water intrusion but allows you to remove things. It’s not an adhesive. Anyway you could use it on this project where you drilled through the epoxy and you won’t have to worry about moisture getting into the interior of the wood.
 

jgt1942

John
User
I wouldn’t put epoxy in the screw holes. You’d never get it apart if you need to replace something, plus it’s expensive and would slow you down a lot. The bedding compound I mentioned is meant for this use. It seals against water intrusion but allows you to remove things. It’s not an adhesive. Anyway you could use it on this project where you drilled through the epoxy and you won’t have to worry about moisture getting into the interior of the wood.
I agree 100% about putting Epoxy on the screw heads, I'm not excited about the idea of tearing it apart. I've already invested a super amount of time. Hopefully it will last another 50 years in its current condition.

I just talked to Total Boat tech support regarding the small area (about 3" x 3/4") that lifted and cracked. Rick (the tech support guy) recommended that I sand the area (120 grit to max 180), wash it with water, let it dry (a day or two), apply TotalBoat penetrating epoxy sealer, and then the Halcyon Water-Based Marine Varnish.

In the near future I will be building some outdoor furniture using wood that I salvaged from the wooden dock (see above). This will be a test of different options and a detail review of some instructions that I received from Kings Woodworking (see Project Plans for Sale)
 

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