Help think through large cookie dining table

[redknife]

I am considering purchasing a large Brazilian Satinwood cookie (about 7 ft x 5.5 ft x about 8" thick max dimension). Before committing to the endeavor I'd like help thinking it through.

I traveled to Asheville Wed-Thursday and visited the usual woodworking suspects. At Scrounger's Paradise, they had three "Mickey Mouse" shaped Brazilian Satinwood Cookies. They have ben air drying at least 4 years. They measure less than 10% moisture at the surface (though they are 6-8" thick).
The pieces are "speaking to me" and I'd like to purchase the one pictured and make it into a dining table.
Here is the specific piece of wood:


I am thinking these are the main considerations:

• Moisture/stability/structural soundness - seems generally ok
• Moving- I have trailer with sufficient weight limit. They have machinery to load on trailer. I need to figure out how to get it off
• Work area - need to figure out where to work on this thing. It will take up a lot of space until completed and ready for use. Also work on floor or place on work support?
• Flattening, preparing surface - all edge grain on the surface; options:
  • Winding sticks and hand planes?
  • Hand power planer?
  • Router sled - large span - design would need extra rigidity than common designs?
  • Edge preparation goals and execution
• Stabilize cracks where necessary, bow ties etc
• Finish - Want a finish that is durable so that we don't need to cover with dining table cloth
• Base-
  • complicated shape makes base design somewhat problematic. Slab shape would seat a lot of people but I wouldn't want the base to block people's legs
  • need to account for movement potentially in 2 directions unless I am certain the design allows movement perpendicular to tangent of growth rings in cookie
  • Needs to be 'easy' to break down and align given weight of top
  • Metal vs wood base and a host of design issues
• Moving to room and setting up

So the cookie is not cheap and the project is significant.

What are your thoughts?

 

[thsb]

Looking at the grain and the unusual shape I think it would make a tremendous table if you have enough room wherever you are going to put it.

I guess it is nice that it is so thick but I don't see that as necessarily a benefit in this situation as I don't think the aesthetics are aided by something so thick and I would think it makes it more expensive and heavier.

Across the way at Asheville Hardware they prep their slabs by using a really low grit with a Festool sander, but i think that they don't have a lot of leveling to do.

Good luck if you move forward. With something like this i usually try to step back for a few days to see if the enthusiasm wears off. if not, it is a good sign to go ahead with the challenge.

 

[redknife]

I guess it is nice that it is so thick but I don't see that as necessarily a benefit in this situation as I don't think the aesthetics are aided by something so thick and I would think it makes it more expensive and heavier.

Yeah I guess we liked the thickness. I am not sure how much thinner it will wind up once it is made flat and co-planer. I wonder how stable it would be thinner given the cookie cut?

Good luck if you move forward. With something like this i usually try to step back for a few days to see if the enthusiasm wears off. if not, it is a good sign to go ahead with the challenge.

I think that is good advice.

 

[ehpoole]

Yeah I guess we liked the thickness. I am not sure how much thinner it will wind up once it is made flat and co-planer. I wonder how stable it would be thinner given the cookie cut?

Keep in mind that end grain is not the most structurally sound orientation for wood as it will want to naturally cleave along grain lines if stressed (with some woods worse than others), the thinner the greater the risk of unintended cleaving unless aprons, or other support, are built into the underside to provide added support, in which case thinner is a possibility. Regardless, the end product will be somewhat thinner, regardless, after flattening the piece.

 

[Dutchman]

It would be impressive if you could pull it off.
1 - Sahpe- Are you going to leave it in its current shape? It doesn't seem like a good shape for people to talk comfortably in its current shape.. Maybe you could cut it and add something to the center to get it into more of a "rectangular" table.
2 -Thickness- Maximum table height is around 30". Your slab needs to be probably no more than 5", and even at that your arm chair choices will be very limited if you want them to slide under the table..
3. I think some type of base could be designed, you would just need to finalize the top design first. Draw out the top shape and put some chair top views around it and evaluate that.

 

[redknife]

It would be impressive if you could pull it off.
2 -Thickness- Maximum table height is around 30". Your slab needs to be probably no more than 5", and even at that your arm chair choices will be very limited if you want them to slide under the table..

hadn't thought about the slab thickness in terms of chairs sliding underneath, thx

 

[redknife]

One of the main issues, as I see it currently, is manipulating the slab while working on it. I think there'd be a minimum of 3 flip overs while flattening and finishing. I've moved heavy machinery and heavy stones but this is different because of the shape. Each flip adds the possibility of damage to the slab or injury.

i am thinking about a jig to hold and manipulate the slab. The basic idea stems from "The Woodman's" spinning door setup to finish doors alone (shown for concept, not actual mechanical structure)
[video=youtube;BXxkDf0mGuw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXxkDf0mGuw[/video]

The design in the video is not nearly adequate for a piece this size. I am thinking about 4 torsion boxes- underneath, overtop, and on the sides. Mount the boxes to heavy pipe for spinning on the long axis. For working on a side remove the top and sides and add support under the torsion box to stop the spinning and stabilize. Replace the tops and sides to flip. Might try a Sketchup in the next few days which would facilitate critique.

Anyone have ideas deals on how they would safely handle the material (turn over, move around) while working on the piece?

 

[Jeff]

So what is "Brazilian Satinwood" before you buy it? It's also known as Yellowheart and it has a yellowish color, but it's not really a "Satinwood" species per se.

http://www.wood-database.com/lumber-identification/hardwoods/yellowheart/

http://www.wood-database.com/wood-articles/sorting-out-satinwoods/

A few thoughts to consider before the design specifics.

 

[Jeff]

So what is "Brazilian Satinwood" before you buy it? It's also known as Yellowheart and it has a yellowish color, but it's not really a "Satinwood" species per se.

http://www.wood-database.com/lumber-identification/hardwoods/yellowheart/

http://www.wood-database.com/wood-articles/sorting-out-satinwoods/

A few thoughts to consider before the design specifics.

 

[redknife]

So what is "Brazilian Satinwood" before you buy it? It's also known as Yellowheart and it has a yellowish color, but it's not really a "Satinwood" species per se.

http://www.wood-database.com/lumber-identification/hardwoods/yellowheart/

http://www.wood-database.com/wood-articles/sorting-out-satinwoods/

A few thoughts to consider before the design specifics.

Thanks, my google skills failed me. That's helpful.

 

[Jeff]

FYI. I calculate about 1,300 lbs for your "rectangular" slab at 7' x 5.5' x 8" thick using 52 lb/cubic foot for yellowheart wood.

In your favor the tangential/radial ratio is 1.2 so expansion/contraction may not crack the cookie much beyond what's in your original picture.

 

[redknife]

FYI. I calculate about 1,300 lbs for your "rectangular" slab at 7' x 5.5' x 8" thick using 52 lb/cubic foot for yellowheart wood.

In your favor the tangential/radial ratio is 1.2 so expansion/contraction may not crack the cookie much beyond what's in your original picture.

Thanks Jeff, that is good info. They thought it was about 500 lbs and I thought that was crazy. I think that it is probably around 800-900# given non-rectangular shape and non-uniform width of 8".

The aspect giving me the most pause remains manipulating the piece while working on it and finishing it (again, minimum 3 flips, etc). No one I know can lift that around by hand (without a lot of help) so it boils down to smarts and tools. I may have neither. Thoughts from anyone about how you would manage this material manipulation would be appreciated.


By the way, here is a photo of another cookie from the same tree with finish:



I am not sure what was used. It is darker than I would expect if it truly is Yellowheart (unless stained of course)

 

[Dutchman]

Thanks Jeff, that is good info. They thought it was about 500 lbs and I thought that was crazy. I think that it is probably around 800-900# given non-rectangular shape and non-uniform width of 8".

The aspect giving me the most pause remains manipulating the piece while working on it and finishing it (again, minimum 3 flips, etc). No one I know can lift that around by hand (without a lot of help) so it boils down to smarts and tools. I may have neither. Thoughts from anyone about how you would manage this material manipulation would be appreciated.


By the way, here is a photo of another cookie from the same tree with finish:

View attachment 19630

I am not sure what was used. It is darker than I would expect if it truly is Yellowheart (unless stained of course)

In this picture the Mickey Mouse shape looks better to me using it as is. It's going to be very difficult to get it into a house, and the floor might require some additional support.

 

[scsmith42]

Several random thoughts.

First, you can reduce the weight if you use a router sled to hollow out the bottom side of the cookie. Think of an upside down "bottle cap" for inspiration. I would strongly suggest using a curved ball end mill cutter on the outer portions of the cut so as to end up with a nice smooth radius transitioning from the hogged out portion to the edges. This will help prevent cracking from occurring along the sharp edge. I would suggest a four part process. First, flatten the top side of the slab with a router sled, next flatten out the bottom side (leaving it a little thicker than desired), and third hollow out the bottom in order to reduce weight (leaving 1-3/4", give or take). Next, store the cookie in a climate controlled area for several months in order to allow it to full acclimate and move. Fourth, reflatten the top with the router sled to address any wood movement that occurred as it did it's final drying. Hollowing out underneath will both cause it to move as it dries and also to allow it to dry more quickly inside a low RH% environment.

Alternatively, we have a planer that can handle up to 72" width, if you happen to be near New Hill. However, since you have to use a router sled to hollow it out it probably makes sense for you to use the router sled for everything.

If you don't want to go the sled route, rent a floor sander to smooth it out.

Hand planing is a non starter, IMO, but your tolerance for pain may be greater than mine LOL!

Fill the cracks completely with a high quality slow drying eqpoxy such as West System or Aero Marine. This will help to maintain the integrity of the cookie long term.

4 years of air drying on an end grain piece should be adequate for drying throughout the piece, but as you've seen the MC% is still greater than target for interior use. If it were not end grain, then you would probably need another few years of drying.

Moving it - there are several options. If you have access to a low trailer with a ramp you can use a pallet jack to transition it from your trailer into your shop (assuming you are in a garage shop). Some long pry bars would be of benefit. Use the jack to move it into your shop and then build the router sled assembly around it. Get 10 buddies or so around to help you turn it.

Obviously a forklift is a great option if you have access to one.

 

[redknife]

Scott (or others)- I like the "bottle cap" idea. Any ideas on how thin do you think I could make the middle part without undue instability?

 

[scsmith42]

Scott (or others)- I like the "bottle cap" idea. Any ideas on how thin do you think I could make the middle part without undue instability?

1-3/4", as I stated in my response above.

 

[Jeff]

Chris, I have an Arbortech Turboplane if you want to try it. It can be pretty aggressive and OMG it'll make the chips fly while making a huge mess! Taking 6" out of your cookie will be a big challenge for shaping the bottle cap effect even with the turbo plane.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ksu6BgMR1k

 

[redknife]

Chris, I have an Arbortech Turboplane if you want to try it. It can be pretty aggressive and OMG it'll make the chips fly while making a huge mess! Taking 6" out of your cookie will be a big challenge for shaping the bottle cap effect even with the turbo plane.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ksu6BgMR1k

Cool, thanks Jeff. Now that I have a workable vision on how to make this happen we have to decide if we want to pull the trigger. Will let you know if we do.

 

[Tarhead]

A sharp hand adze combined with a bunch of circular saw kerfs to final depth may be an easier option and will add to the "handmade" appeal/value.

 

[farmerbw]

Lots of good suggestions so far. If the cookie is mostly 8" thick and you're looking at getting the interior "bottle cap" thickness down to 1 3/4" that's an awful lot to remove, i.e waste. Would it be possible to cut the cookie in half or do you think it would be too unstable then? That might yield you 2 table slabs instead of 1 and you could still use some of the suggested processing methods..... I know a horizontal band saw that large might be out of the question, but that may be how the cookie was cut to that size to begin with... :eusa_thin

Just throwing that out there FWIW...

B.