Eliminating Post Beetles in Furniture

[farmerbw]

This is a topic that I've seen discussed in round about ways but don't recall seeing anything that addresses this specifically. So here goes, someone point me in the right direction if I've overlooked a post that covers this.

I've got a buddy that's asking for some guidance how how to address what appears to be Powder Post Beetles in a piece of furniture he and his wife bought. Here's a quick run down.

They've got the typical holes and "powder" on the floor under the table and even found some sunflower shaped critter bodies as well. He doesn't have a pic of the bodies or his holes but they look like this.

And they're in this.

The table top is 3 slabs, which he believes is pine, and the builder stained but didn't topcoat the pieces so he added a urethane topcoat on his own. I'm not sure if he used water or Oil and am waiting to hear back from him on that. He confirmed he used Oil base.

I'm guessing since the slabs are already finished that heating the pieces in a kiln are probably not a good option? Does anyone have any first hand experience with Jecta Gel or Timbor for treating or preventing infestations? I've seen Timbor or a similar product used on TOH several years ago and have been thinking about getting some to treat/salvage some of the logs I have but haven't heard of the Jel until now.

Any thoughts or suggestions on the method with the best chance of success for this? He's willing to pay someone to help solve the issue if there's a non-diy method that would work better. If the chems will work then I may have him buy one or the other and help him with the application.

TIA,
Brian.

 

[Tarhead]

Wow! That's serious!
Since they're active you have to deal with them or they could spread to other wooden parts of the house and furnture. The finish is the least of your worries. Putting the table in a kiln during the sterilization phase will work. Scott Smith or Kyle Edwards would be a much better source of detail on doing this than me. The bugs definitely won't survive the hot kiln and I'm not sure any insecticide will penetrate deep enough (short of tenting and fumigating it under pressure) that is applied to the surface. I wouldn't want to eat off of it after any serious insecticide has been applied. Another option is a walk in freezer. 0 degrees for a few days would take care of them too.

Please let us know what happens.

 

[CrealBilly]

What's the moisture content of the wood?

 

[scsmith42]

If I were them I'd take that piece back and get a refund or replacement. By all means they need to get it out of their house.

The only foolproof way to kill any infestations is via heat. Typically 24 hours at 135F, or a shorter time at a higher temp.

And what's worse, if that is made from SYP that was not KD then the sap will start bleeding out of it over time. Typically you treat pine at 160F at the end of the kiln cycle in order to set the pitch in the wood (crystalizes it).

 

[Ken Massingale]

I wouldn't worry about killing the critters. I'd let the builder worry about it after I returned it and got my $$$ back, and never buy from him again. There's no excuse for that, IMO, the beetles didn't get into the wood after it was built, they were there in the raw stock.

 

[farmerbw]

Thanks everyone for the responses. Let me point out again that the boring damage photo isn't actually on his table, it's bad but not that severe, he found a similar pic to use as an example since he didn't get any pics the damage to the table.

While returning it would be the best result it's probably not going to happen since it wasn't bought locally and would require a road trip. They have removed the piece from the house but would like to salvage it instead of scrapping it if possible.

I read on one of those links that beetles only seek out wood of the species they were hatched in and wouldn't cross/change specie, pine-pine, cherry-cherry but not pine-cherry...etc. Anyone know first hand or from a reliable source that that's true? He might consider trying out the chemicals if the risk of them spreading to every type of wood they have isn't an issue. Granted isn't most framing pine and therefore there's still risk of further spreading?

Jeff, unfortunately the moisture content is unknown and since neither he nor I have a meter it probably will stay that way for now. Out of curiosity how would the moisture content play into the equation? Would it change possible courses of action?

Scott sending you a PM.

Thanks again and more info is appreciated.
Brian.

 

[CrealBilly]

Thanks everyone for the responses. Let me point out again that the boring damage photo isn't actually on his table, it's bad but not that severe, he found a similar pic to use as an example since he didn't get any pics the damage to the table.

While returning it would be the best result it's probably not going to happen since it wasn't bought locally and would require a road trip. They have removed the piece from the house but would like to salvage it instead of scrapping it if possible.

I read on one of those links that beetles only seek out wood of the species they were hatched in and wouldn't cross/change specie, pine-pine, cherry-cherry but not pine-cherry...etc. Anyone know first hand or from a reliable source that that's true? He might consider trying out the chemicals if the risk of them spreading to every type of wood they have isn't an issue. Granted isn't most framing pine and therefore there's still risk of further spreading?

Jeff, unfortunately the moisture content is unknown and since neither he nor I have a meter it probably will stay that way for now. Out of curiosity how would the moisture content play into the equation? Would it change possible courses of action?

Scott sending you a PM.

Thanks again and more info is appreciated.
Brian.

Bugs don't like dry wood and if it's still green when you dry it you know it's gonna move - take it back for a refund would be my advise.

Heck I have refunded wood I've sold to NCWoodworker members, that had a few bug holes in it. Even after trying to explain Scott's Kiln would have killed any living bug in the wood. Some people are just that way...

 

[farmerbw]

Jeff, good point, duh!! :slap:

Brian.

 

[cpowell]

I talked with an insect expert a few years ago about this topic and he felt the danger of PP beetles was far less than what we fear. He thought the PP holes simply added character to a piece.

He was in a respected position with a company that could afford the best. I don't know enough to offer a personal opinion.

I have noticed that PP beetles don't mess with walnut heartwood but not sure about pine.

I would be more concerned about a host of other problems beyond PP beetles from using wood that is still wet to make what is supposed to be fine furniture.

Edit in: If I had bought this I would return it. If I had made this for myself I would live with it, learn from it, and keep an eye on it. Fine furniture should use dry wood, either KD or very well equilibrated AD.


Chuck

 

[dpanda]

Farmerbw,

Well my experience with powder post beetles was in an Primitive Antique Corner Cabinet, made of poplar in NC. I noticed the sawdust after I bought the piece. It was a fixer upper so the idea of returning it wasn't an option.

What I did was spray the piece with insecticide you can buy anywhere. I made sure to get it into the holes... OK I saturated it! After it dried I refinished it with shellac, as shellac was probably the original finish. I used a wax hole filler that is available at the Borgs, to fill the holes. The wax is available to match the finish, Really crayons would work also. After that, I looked at the piece continually to make sure there wasn't an active powder post beetles infestation.

I know there hasn't been any activity in my antique. I moved from the house I first restored the antique in. but I don't expect there was a problem at the house, at least no one has sued me!
I would lean to what Chuck Powell's expert said from my experience. But I was cautious and of course you should be also!

Dan

 

[farmerbw]

Thanks everyone for the suggestions and information. :icon_thum

The table won't be getting returned for whatever reasons, didn't ask and wasn't my biz, and he's decided to go with one of the borate based chemicals.

Now for the fun part. He's going to have to remove the topcoat and stain, to get optimum penetration per the label directions, using a ROS and palm sander. Maybe he should consider renting a belt sander since he doesn't have one.

Would anyone in the Holly Springs area with a wide belt sander be interested in running them through for fee? The top planks are around 16", benches are around 8" and both are in the 3-4" thick range. Would that provide an opportunity to spread the critters or are they only active at certain times under certain conditions?

Thanks again everyone,
Brian.

 

[DaveO]

Brian I would suggest to your friend that he/she use a chemical stripper instead of trying to sand off the finish.

Dave

 

[dpanda]

Stripping urethane is a PITA. But why is it being stripped? I thought you're looking to eliminate PP beetles. Wouldn't sealing them in work? I don't know just asking! I know it worked for me with shellac I think urethane would seal in anything.
Dan

 

[dkeller_nc]

Thanks everyone for the suggestions and information. :icon_thum

The table won't be getting returned for whatever reasons, didn't ask and wasn't my biz, and he's decided to go with one of the borate based chemicals.

Now for the fun part. He's going to have to remove the topcoat and stain, to get optimum penetration per the label directions, using a ROS and palm sander. Maybe he should consider renting a belt sander since he doesn't have one.

Would anyone in the Holly Springs area with a wide belt sander be interested in running them through for fee? The top planks are around 16", benches are around 8" and both are in the 3-4" thick range. Would that provide an opportunity to spread the critters or are they only active at certain times under certain conditions?

Thanks again everyone,
Brian.

Brian - advise your friend to NOT strip the furniture! A borate-based chemical will not sufficiently penetrate the furniture (and the insect holes to reliably kill the infestation.

But there's two alternatives that're guaranteed, does not require re-finishing or dissassembly, nor does it leave any residue behind.

The first is the quickest and probably easiest, and that's ammonia fuming. Your friend can simply buy a large enough tarp to completely cover the furniture, with enough left over so that it can be sealed to the ground (or a driveway). Note that this treatment will kill everything under the tarp, so doing this on a lawn is probably a no-no unless re-seeding is desirable.

Anyway - purchase some 30% Ammonium Hydroxide (technical grade - the cheapest) from Thermo-Fisher in Raleigh, place the furniture on a concrete surface, or a dirt surface that doesn't have any desirable plants, place the tarp over the furniture, and weight down the tarp all the way around it. One way to weight it and make sure that little gas will escape is to shovel some dirt/sand around the edge of the tarp.

Using a carbon respirator (you can get a very effective one from Home Depot for about $20), pour the ammonia in a wide, low plastic container, and place it under the tarp. Wait 12 hours. Un-tarp the furniture and allow it to "air out" for another 12 hours. Presto - instant sterilization.

Note that this treatment may change the color of the stain on the furniture. It will -probably- darken it, but one might want to do a test piece to be sure.

The second way is a bit more involved, but does not require any chemicals. Buy a roll of thick painter's plastic sufficiently wide to make a bag around the biggest pieces of furniture. Buy some oxygen-scavenger packets (these are packets of iron filings and a catalyst that will react and sequester oxygen from the air). Make an envelope around each piece of furniture, include about 20 of the oxygen scavenger packets, seal the plastic with double-sided tape, and then tape the seams with the foil-type duct tape. You will know that the oxygen scavengers are working because the envelopes will deflate slightly as the oxygen reacts with the iron.

Leave this for 10 days, checking to ensure that there are no holes in the envelopes. The lack of oxygen will kill the borers and their eggs, with no residue and no stripping required.

 

[scsmith42]

Brian - advise your friend to NOT strip the furniture! A borate-based chemical will not sufficiently penetrate the furniture (and the insect holes to reliably kill the infestation.

But there's two alternatives that're guaranteed, does not require re-finishing or dissassembly, nor does it leave any residue behind.

The first is the quickest and probably easiest, and that's ammonia fuming. Your friend can simply buy a large enough tarp to completely cover the furniture, with enough left over so that it can be sealed to the ground (or a driveway). Note that this treatment will kill everything under the tarp, so doing this on a lawn is probably a no-no unless re-seeding is desirable.

Anyway - purchase some 30% Ammonium Hydroxide (technical grade - the cheapest) from Thermo-Fisher in Raleigh, place the furniture on a concrete surface, or a dirt surface that doesn't have any desirable plants, place the tarp over the furniture, and weight down the tarp all the way around it. One way to weight it and make sure that little gas will escape is to shovel some dirt/sand around the edge of the tarp.

Using a carbon respirator (you can get a very effective one from Home Depot for about $20), pour the ammonia in a wide, low plastic container, and place it under the tarp. Wait 12 hours. Un-tarp the furniture and allow it to "air out" for another 12 hours. Presto - instant sterilization.

Note that this treatment may change the color of the stain on the furniture. It will -probably- darken it, but one might want to do a test piece to be sure.

The second way is a bit more involved, but does not require any chemicals. Buy a roll of thick painter's plastic sufficiently wide to make a bag around the biggest pieces of furniture. Buy some oxygen-scavenger packets (these are packets of iron filings and a catalyst that will react and sequester oxygen from the air). Make an envelope around each piece of furniture, include about 20 of the oxygen scavenger packets, seal the plastic with double-sided tape, and then tape the seams with the foil-type duct tape. You will know that the oxygen scavengers are working because the envelopes will deflate slightly as the oxygen reacts with the iron.

Leave this for 10 days, checking to ensure that there are no holes in the envelopes. The lack of oxygen will kill the borers and their eggs, with no residue and no stripping required.

David, very insightful and good solutions - thanks for sharing.

Scott

 

[dkeller_nc]

One other note - Ammonium hydroxide in the 30% concentration is very caustic. Not only will the fumes really burn the crap out of your sinus passages (and lungs, if you get a lungfull of the fumes), the liquid will burn your skin. Treat it like you would a strong acid - like muriatic used to etch concrete. Wear a respirator, a face shield, and rubber gloves (the re-usable dishwashing gloves work well - don't use disposable latex as they're not thick enough).

This isn't as dangerous as I make it sound, but precautions are in order.

 

[farmerbw]

DaveO, forgot about strippers completely. Must have something to do with being married!! :rotflm::rotflm:

David, those are both very interesting and good suggestions. I actually did option 1, or something similar, back in the late 70's to treat some old farm house and barn wood that we used to panel some rooms in one of my childhood homes. We stickered all the wood under a barn shelter on top of plastic, then covered/tented with more plastic, and shoveled sand on top. The "gas" we used was in puncture cans so we drove large nails through the bottom of 5 gallon cut off herbicide jugs and popped holes in the cans by grabbing them in the plastic. It must have worked well because there's been no sign of bugs in any of that wood. :thumbs_up

I was under the impression you couldn't buy any of the "good" chemicals anymore cause they weren't considered safe for layman use. I'm assuming the 1st treatments would also prevent re-infestment from another source where as the last might not?

Thanks again,
Brian.

 

[dkeller_nc]

"I was under the impression you couldn't buy any of the "good" chemicals anymore cause they weren't considered safe for layman use. I'm assuming the 1st treatments would also prevent re-infestment from another source where as the last might not?

Neither will prevent re-infestation, but that shouldn't be a problem for something that's inside with a finish on it. You can buy certain chemicals as member of the general public, but certain ones are restricted. Generally the restricted ones are precursors for illegal drugs or explosives. However, that's hit and miss - a determined individual can make explosives out of just about any strong oxidizer and an organic substance as a fuel. I would imagine fissile-grade plutonium is also off-limits. :mrgreen: