Electrical Panel

Status
Not open for further replies.

MrAudio815

New User
Matthew
Hello NCWW's,


I was looking at the electrical panel in the Home we are renting (Built before 1978).

The Common (white) wire is connected to the same strip as the ground wire. Is this right?


Also the Main panel is in the basement in my son's room on the other side of the house from the garage. I want to put in a 50amp breaker for a sub panel in the Garage. Does anyone know if there would be 2x4's braced between the studs that would get in my way? Or do you think it would be clear and I can just drop/feed the wire from the attic to the panel in the basement about 18'?


Thanks for your help~!


Matthew
 

wronghand

New User
Chris
Not sure about the common being attached to the ground, it doesn't sound right but I don't know. As far as dropping the wire from the attic to the basement, I would think you would have a top plate and a bottom plate to contend with.
 

Woodman2k

Greg Bender
Corporate Member
Matthew,
you sound like your getting ready to try something you probably should not be trying.You are in somebody else's property so keep the creativity to a minimum.The ground and the common are always tied together on 115V circuits.As far as pushing anything 18' through a stud wall.if you manage to do that my next move would be to move out and find me a place with some framing in the walls.I know this will not help but find somebody with some experience and go from there.
Greg
 

MrAudio815

New User
Matthew
Matthew,
you sound like your getting ready to try something you probably should not be trying.You are in somebody else's property so keep the creativity to a minimum.The ground and the common are always tied together on 115V circuits.As far as pushing anything 18' through a stud wall.if you manage to do that my next move would be to move out and find me a place with some framing in the walls.I know this will not help but find somebody with some experience and go from there.
Greg



Greg,


I have permission from the Owner to put electrical in. He is trying to get a electrician.....Very slowly. To put a whole ner meter panel on the outside of the house with breakers. One for the existing panel which would have to go through a junction box first. And the other I would do myself. Run from one of the breakers up the brick wall of the house through conduit and throuhg the attic and into the garage where I would connect my sub panel I had from the previous house I installed electricity.


I am just anxious to get electric and thought if I could just connect to the existing panel from the attic to the panel then I would have power a whole lot sooner. Also the garage was added later and there is an additional breaker with it's wires going up through the studs and through the attic. And that is whey I thought I might be able to do the same. I would be using 150amp rated aluminum wire though as I will be going about 90+ feet.


Thanks for the advice and comments.
 

Bas

Recovering tool addict
Bas
Corporate Member
The Common (white) wire is connected to the same strip as the ground wire. Is this right?
In the main panel, the neutral bar is bonded to the ground bar, so that is correct. See http://homerepair.about.com/od/electricalrepair/ss/anat_elec_pnl_7.htm. In a sub panel, the ground bar must be separate from the neutral bar.

If you go with aluminum wire, make sure you use something like alumilox to prevent oxidation. For 150A, the wire size is 1/0. That's overkill. If you want a 50A sub panel with a 90 foot run, #3 should be sufficient. The voltage drop is only ~1.5%. The thicker the wire, the harder it is to pull, and the bigger the holes you need to drill.

I'll echo the advice on getting an electrician to help with this. Wiring up outlets, lights, breakers etc. is relatively straightforward DIY task, but pulling a wire to the attic may be problematic if you don't have fish tape, the right drill bits etc. This is where experience counts. If the owner is dragging his feet, you could call around for one yourself.
 

ehpoole

Moderator
Ethan
In the main panel, the neutral bar is bonded to the ground bar, so that is correct. See http://homerepair.about.com/od/electricalrepair/ss/anat_elec_pnl_7.htm. In a sub panel, the ground bar must be separate from the neutral bar.

Just to clarify this common point of confusion, with respect to MODERN CODE, ONLY the main load panel (panel closest to meter) should have the neutral and ground bonded together. From that point on, all sub panels will be fed with 4 conductors and their neutral and ground wires are NOT bonded together. This change was made in part to reduce the risk of ground loop currents and the risk of excess potential on the ground lead. By tying the ground wire to the neutral wire at a singular point, there should be a single and identical potential on the ground wire throughout the structure. This should also (generally) be the point at which the structure's ground rod(s) are tied in.

HOWEVER, in older homes (and I'm not sure exactly which year the code changed as I only study the code when I need to do a major wiring job for friends or family), it was customary to feed both main and subpanels with 3-wire feeders and, as such, the ground and neutral wires would be bonded at each and every panel so that the neutral-ground wire (the 'third' wire) could provide both neutral and ground. However, in cases where there was a strong imbalance between the two hot legs (such as with switching power supplies) or poor mechanical connection or corrosion has deteriorated the bonded neutral-ground and where there was too much resistance on the neutral-ground leg, you could end up with an excessive potential on the neutral bus, which due to the bonding would also feed into the structure's ground resulting in charged appliance chasis.

So, if it is an older home it is not unusual to see sub panels with bonded neutral-ground connections. However, if this is a newer home -- or if a major electrical remodel has been recently undertaken -- then only the 'main' panel should have a bonded neutral-ground connection and all sub panels should be fed with 4-wire feeders with NO bond between the neutral and ground wires/busses.

This means, that your new sub panel should be fed with a 4-wire feeder (or a 3-wire plus an appropriately sized ground conductor for 4-wires total) and there should be no bonding between the ground and neutral bus in your new sub panel.

As to whether there will be any cross-bracing/fire-stops in your walls depends on where and when the wall was built and to what code. You should be able to detect a fire-stop/brace with a stud finder once you identify which two studs you intend to mount your panel in between. When you mount the panel you are going to have to cut into the drywall anyways, so worst case you can just open it up and take a look. A little bit of drywall patching is not that difficult, so when in doubt just open it up and take a look.

That said, fire-stops or bracing aside, you are going to have to drill through the top and bottom plates (plus flooring) for each level you wish to drop the wiring. Further, depending on what type of cable you use for the 4-wire feeder, you may need to support the feeder cable every 8-10 feet vertically so that it is not damaged under its own weight. Some can handle greater drops if they are designed for large unsupported vertical runs. You also have the option of installing conduit (gray PVC would be easiest) and run 4 single conductors between panels if the sub panel is a fairly straight drop to the basement (you can easily tuck a 1-1/4" PVC conduit within the walls -- you could even get by with 1" PVC, but it will be a tighter fit and a bit more work to pull).

Edit: The recommendation of 1" to 1-1/4" PVC Conduit was based upon a 60-100A Panel with copper feed. If you are really going to run a 150A #2/0 Aluminum feed you will need 1-1/2" PVC Conduit at an absolute minimum (with a lot of lube) and preferably 2" PVC Conduit.

I prefer sticking with copper in residential structures especially for DIY work, though aluminum can be used for the feeder. If you go with aluminum, don't forget to upsize it by atleast one gauge to correct for the poorer conductivity of aluminum. Also don't forget to apply corrosion inhibitor to each of your connections when using aluminum and carefully torque your connections to the recommended foot-pounds (but do not over-torque) to ensure a reliable connection. Also avoid tight bends and excessive flexing of aluminum as it fatigues more easily than copper and excessive flexing and tight bending can result in conductor breakage.

HTH
 
Last edited:

ehpoole

Moderator
Ethan
I would be using 150amp rated aluminum wire though as I will be going about 90+ feet.

My question would be why do you feel you need 150A panel plus 2/0 aluminum wire for your sub panel? For a workshop, 60-100 Amps is more than adequate. At 100A, #1 or #2 AWG copper (#6 ground) would be more than adequate to keep voltage drop to a minimum and a whole lot easier to work with than 2/0 aluminum. (PS - Just because a panel is rated for 150A does not mean you can not wire it for 100A -- you just can't exceed the 150A rating).

I tend to be a bit wary of DIYers and aluminum wiring, especially such high amperages. It is safe enough if you do everything right, but if a DIYer misses a step or doesn't torque a connection tightly enough then there is a potential for fire. Copper, by comparison, is much more forgiving and IHMO safer for a DIYer to use unless they are experienced in aluminum wiring. I always strip any aluminum wiring from my homes save for the main utility feed. Copper, though more expensive, really is a superior product for typical residential applications. I've seen too many 70's homes and apartments with aluminum wiring and a host of fire risks to go with it (face it, the average homeowner/landlord does not do regular maintenance on their aluminum wiring inspecting it for loose or corroded connections).
 

Gotcha6

Dennis
Staff member
Corporate Member
Bonding neutral and grounds together in sub panels after the main panel invites back-feed. Avoid it. If you find it, correct it if possible. This is particularly important with computer devices. They rely on the independent ground to the main panel and subsequent grounding mechanism(s) for surge suppression. Also, codes are becoming more stringent on 'shared neutrals' because of the back-feed issue. Something to keep in mind.
Also, you would be wise to have a licensed electrician check the work after it is installed, at least. Any work done on a rental house by someone other than the landlord's authorized and licensed agent may place them liable for subsequent damages and would void the landlord's insurance coverage for the structure.
 

MrAudio815

New User
Matthew
The only reason I was thinking of getting the 150amp residential rated aluminum is because I would get it for about .50 cents a foot.

That is super cheap. It is coming from a business that has just upgraded their power. They had 270' of the stuff and they are willing to sell it to me cheap and cut however much I need, approximately 100'.

I went in the attic today and there is a way to get the wire past the top plate, but good luck getting it through the bottom plate.

It looks like we will have to go with the electricians plans of upgrading the meter panel with breakers with one breaker going into a junction box then to the existing panel. Then another brekaer from the new meter panel to the sub panel. I would probably use the aluminum there as I would just be going up the outside of the house's brick through a large enough conduit and then into the attic, down the wall of the garage and into my sub panel.

The first electrician said he would do everything and even get a new sub panel for under $1500. Another electrician said her would do the new meter panel and junction box only for $1120.

Both seem high to me~!
 

Sealeveler

Tony
Corporate Member
However, in cases where there was a strong imbalance between the two hot legs (such as with switching power supplies) or poor mechanical connection or corrosion has deteriorated the bonded neutral-ground and where there was too much resistance on the neutral-ground leg, you could end up with an excessive potential on the neutral bus, which due to the bonding would also feed into the structure's ground resulting in charged appliance chassis.Quote from Ethan

Not to highjack this thread but this is what I am experiencing in my home.I have loosened and re-tightened all connections in the panel but still have this issue.Could the problem be in the meter base.
Tony
 

ehpoole

Moderator
Ethan
due to the bonding would also feed into the structure's ground resulting in charged appliance chassis.Quote from Ethan

Not to highjack this thread but this is what I am experiencing in my home.I have loosened and re-tightened all connections in the panel but still have this issue.Could the problem be in the meter base.
Tony

First, if you have issues with respect to energized appliance chasis, I would really *strongly* urge you to hire an experienced electrician to diagnose and correct the issue. This is a very dangerous issue to have and a number of potential causes can come into play to contribute to this issue which can require someone with substantial experience and a strong knowledgebase to troubleshoot. In the interest of full disclosure, I am not an electrician, my grandfather was the electrician and I spent much of my childhood, teens and early 20's assisting him on his jobs.

Some of the common causes for energized appliance chasis (in no particular order) follow. This list should not be considered exhaustive and it is not uncommon for multiple causes to contribute to the problem, so it may not be any singular cause.

1) Miswired receptacles. When an inexperienced DIYer rewires a receptacle the outcome is often potluck. Hot-Neutral miswiring is very common, but I have also seen hot grounds before. A very inexpensive troubleshooter for 120V receptacles is available at nearly every hardware store, it is a simple plugin device (usually yellow or orange in color) with 3 neon indicators (two amber and one red) and a chart (located on a sticker attached to the device) that you match the neon indicators againts. It costs only a few dollars and is a very handy device to have to verify your receptacle is properly wired -- even a novice can do basic troubleshooting with this device. Unfortunately, they are only sold for 120V receptacles, so diagnosing 240V receptacles will require a volt meter and the experience to properly interpret the results. Whenever you move into a new home or apartment, it is a good idea to use this device to verify proper wiring on ALL your 120V receptacles and to have promptly repaired any that fail the test.

2) A poor or non-existent earth-ground (your ground rod). Ground rods can corrode and fail, ground wires connecting the ground rod to your main load center (breaker box) can become disconnected or your soil conditions may not be suitable for a single ground rod to get the job done. During drought periods, I had to drive 5 ten-foot copper-clad ground rods to achieve a sufficiently low resistance to ground due to the dry soil conditions. Code typically only requires a single 8-foot galvanized steel ground rod -- but sometimes it takes much more to achieve an adequate earth ground. Don't forget to also ground any metal plumbing (cast iron, lead or copper waste lines; copper or steel water lines, etc.) and gas lines.

3) A failure in your utility's neutral conductor and/or a failure to bond the earth ground (ground rod) to the neutral conductor in your main load center can result in an energized neutral or ground conductor. Failure to bond the neutral and ground really requires a thorough visual inspection of the ground wiring and a meter to check the resistance and voltage between neutral and ground to diagnose. Issue #2 can also come into play here if the ground rod is inadequate or not connected. A failure of the utility's neutral conductor results in a floating neutral whose voltage will fluctuate wildly as different 120V devices switch on and off throughout your home, and this unusual imbalance can overwhelm your ground rod's ability to absorb the imbalance. Typically, an intermittently failing neutral conductor will result in lots of flickering lighting and lighting that fluctuates between being dimmer than usual and being much brighter than usual as incandescent bulbs are very sensitive to voltage variations. You can also expect to see premature bulb failure and potential failure of 120V electronics whose power supplies were not designed for higher voltages (though many electronics these days are capable of operating from 85V to 240V and would not likely be harmed).

4) If this is limited to a single appliance, it can also be caused by an internal short in the appliance itself that has allowed the chasis to become energized. If the chasis is supposed to be grounded, then it should knock down the breaker, but if there is also an issue with the quality of, or the existence of, a proper ground connection then the chasis can remain dangerously energized.

As I said, this is by no means an exhaustive list and it often requires a good knowledgebase and experience to draw upon to diagnose such issues. On the positive side, once diagnosis is complete the actual repair is generally not outrageously expensive (e.g. drive a new ground rod, bond the earth-ground and neutral, replacing or repairing a damaged appliance, tightening a lose neutral conductor, etc.) though there are exceptions.

Let us know when you have pinned down the cause and don't be afraid to ask questions if you require further assistance.

HTH - Good luck!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Premier Sponsor

Our Sponsors

Top