Electric-New panel or Sub-panel?

[Randy]

I just moved into a house with an attached two car garage that I'm going to be slowly setting up as a shop. It only has a couple outlets in the garage and very limited lighting. Ideally I'd like to run a couple circuits of outlets, add some fluorescents and maybe a 220 outlet or two for future purchases. Problem: the main control panel, which is in the garage, is absolutely full. There's not one open slot and several of them have even been divided up with those 2 for 1 slots too. Also, not sure if it matters but the main panel doesn't have a main kill switch in it right now either...I think it's at the meter outside the house.

Anyway, I'm looking for opinions on whether to just have a new, much bigger main panel put in with a bunch of open slots or should I put a sub-panel in next to it? I'm trying to determine the ease, ballpark cost, general best-practice and feasability on either of the 2 options for someone with desire but not a heck of a lot of knowledge in electrical. Thanks in advance!

Randy

 

[D L Ames]

Randy, it sounds like your existing panel is already over loaded. IMHO I would get an estimate for replacing the existing panel with a larger one and maybe still run a smaller sub panel off the new one that would be dedicated solely to meet the needs of your shop as you decide to expand in the future. Just my $.02

D L

 

[toolferone]

Does your meter have any spots left in it to add a breaker. You could run a line in from there to a new subpanel.

 

[Randy]

I just checked the meter and there are 6 slots total with three breakers in there now...1 marked A/C, 1 "Range" and 1 marked "sub-panel" which must be what I consider the main panel in the garage. It still has 3 open slots in it. I'm assuming that would mean getting the electric company involved to kill power at street level for the final connect?

 

[wapitiscat]

Randy,

Your last post confused me. Which panel is full and which has the breakers marked AC, range, etc. w/ three open slots. The easiest thing to do if you have and open spot in your main service panel is to use it to supply a 100 amp subpanel in the garage .. uh ... I mean shop. It sounds like you may already have this setup (or similar) if you have two service panels already.

Todd (barely a woodworker, NOT an electrician)

 

[Randy]

Sorry for the confusion...and I am definitely not an electrician. Anyway, the outside panel (at the meter on the side of the house) has open slots to accomodate 3 more double pole breakers. Three of the double slots are full with the A/C, range and "main house panel" (which is the full one in the garage). It sounds like you and toolferone's suggesting of popping in another double pole breaker to this outside panel is going to be my best bet. I can then follow the path of the existing wire to the main box and branch at the last couple feet to a new subpanel for the shop. It sounds like a good idea on paper but I'll probably have a different opinion halfway through my crawlspace on my belly. :crybaby2:

Again, does this mean getting Progress Energy involved before the final connect at the outside box?

 

[wapitiscat]

Got it. There are some electro-savvy folks on the forum and I'm sure they'll weigh in with more advice. I can't believe I'm typing this but ,... you may want to hire an electrician. There. I said it. It sounds likethere is enough uncertainty in your layout that it may be time to call in a pro. I'm comfortable running new circuits but you may have some load issues to consider. I look forward to reading what others think and what you end up doing.

Todd

 

[Steve D]

From the sounds of what you have described you have a split service with the "main" panel outside. Code requires that there be a single main disconnect or the "6 hand rule". This means that you can have a main panel without a single main breaker but you must be able to shut off all power from that location with no more than 6 movements of the hand or flipping six breakers. Your outside panel is probably designed to accept only 6 breakers.

A full panel does not mean that your system is fully loaded, just that you are out of space. You won't reach overload until the have simultaneous loads that exceed 80% of your service rating. You can feed your new sub panel from either of your existing panels as long as you don't violate the 6 hand rule at the main. It will be cheaper to feed it out of the existing panel in the garage because you won't need as much heavy gauge feeder wire. The real questions are #1 what is the amperage of the service to the house (the meter may give you a clue) #2 what is the amperage of the breaker that feeds the panel in the garage.

If you run it from the outside panel, the only way to kill power to the panel is to have the utility company pull the meter while the work is done. An electrician would probably work it hot but I wouldn't recommend you try that. If you run it from the inside, you can kill power to that panel with the subfeed breaker in the outside panel. If you are limited on space in the existing panel, you can move a couple of circuits over into the new sub panel and place a subfeed breaker in their place to feed the new panel.

*****Disclaimer - I'm not an electrician but I have stayed at a Holiday Inn Express (and I used to sell this stuff for GE) :lol: :lol:

 

[Ozzie-x]

Randy,
You can simply install a new breaker in your main meter panel and run a new feeder to your shop. Without knowing more about the loads in your house, I can't do load calcs for you, but usually most houses are okay from an actual demand load standpoint unless you have some unusually BIG loads in the house. Probably a 60 amp 120/240 volt 4 wire feeder will be more than adequate, unless you're planning on running some big honkin welders or something. Most home shop equipment doesn't create that much load, particularly when you consider that you can only work with one tool at a time anyway, unless you have a bunch of friends over. When you go buy the material, you'll probably agree that 60 amp is ok vs 100A the way wire prices have skyrocketed lately. The feeder will have to be 4 wire with 2 "hots", an insulated neutral and a separate grounding conductor. Aluminum wire is cheaper than copper and will be fine for this application, providing the wire terminations are done properly. The panel in your shop will have to be wired as a sub-panel with the grounds and neutrals separated and the neutral(s) isolated from ground. Hope this helps.
Regards
the other Randy

 

[Randy]

Decisions, decisions...it's sounding like path of least resistance (read that cost, headache and danger) would be
1) install new subpanel
2) kill power at the breaker that feeds to the existing panel in house
3) move a couple of breakers over to a new sub-panel, to make room for a feeder breaker
4) hook up new sub-panel to existing panel via the feeder breaker

The house has 200A service and the amperage of the breaker that feeds the existing panel is a 90 amp breaker at the outside panel. Any obvious issues? No disclaimers necessary

 

[Steve D]

No,

With 200 amp service you should have adequate juice. I would follow Ozzie's advice with sizing and go 60 amps on your new sub feed and go for it. As Ozzie pointed out, you need to keep the grounds & neutrals seperate in the panel and not connect the service entrance bonding since this is a sub panel. Try to position your sub panel so that you can move the circuits over without coming up short on wire :BangHead: .

 

[toolferone]

Yes you will run a lot less wire if you do it from the garage box over to a new sub box with a couple of old breakers in th new box. You might want to take a look at the garage box to see witch breakers to move. Some boxes won't let you add a 220 breaker near the bottom of the box. I still like th idea of running a new wire from the meter base. You could do all your wiring to the new box then run the wire to the meter box, and make that your last hook up. I have added many circuits to a live box. Some like to do it some don't. I would be glad to come over and give it a look see to help you out.
I wired my hole shop myself out to and changed the meter from 200 to 400 amp. I had permits,& inspections and passed them all with no problems.

 

[Steve D]

Tom,

I've done plenty of work hot too but that isn't anything I would recommend to someone with limited experience. Getting zapped wiring an outlet is one thing but being live in a main panel while pulling in and terminating large stiff wires is another matter. All new would be cleanest, passing through the exisitng would be the cheapest, easiest and safest for a DIY'er IMHO.

 

[toolferone]

All new would be cleanest, passing through the exisitng would be the cheapest, easiest and safest for a DIY'er IMHO.

I agree, but thinking he could get an electrictian to do the final hook-up and a quick look over the system for him. Might save a few bucks doing most of the grunt work himself.
(I though all that, but forgot to say it in my last response.)

 

[Randy]

I guess the rest is up to me. At least now I know I have a couple options which I didn't even know I had before. As usual, great advice...I mean lighthearted banter from completely anonymous, unqualified yahoos whose opinions and input on a forum can't force them to be held accountable or liable in a court of law. And I mean that in the nicest way. Thanks for the education:eusa_clap

 

[toolferone]

unqualified yahoos :eusa_clap

Hey. I resemble that remark:rolf: !

 

[Gofor]

See if there are any local electricians who will give you a free estimate. IF so, their estimate and discussion will give you an idea how They would do it, and might be low enough that it would be feasible to let someone else either do it or do the final tie in. For any garage circuits, I would go with 12 ga wire on the 120v outlets so that you can run 20 amp breakers on it. Don't be shocked at the cost of wire. It has quadrupled recently due to the price of copper going sky high. Also go with a GFI circuit for your outlets.

My $.02:lol:

 

[Steve D]

my middle name is unqualified yahoo who talks too much....:rolf:

Hey. I resemble that remark:rolf: !

 

[McRabbet]

I would go with 12 ga wire on the 120v outlets so that you can run 20 amp breakers on it. Don't be shocked at the cost of wire. It has quadrupled recently due to the price of copper going sky high. Also go with a GFI circuit for your outlets.

My $.02:lol:

Ground-Fault Circuit Interrupts are required by code in garages in most jurisdictions. I have them on my benchtop 20Amp circuits where the homerun goes to the GFCI outlet and the rest on that circuit are slaved to it.

Rob