Dust Collector

[petebucy4638]

I'm in the market for a new dust collector. My existing 1 hp Delta single-stage collector works fine but I want a little more capacity and a little less ambient dust. I've narrowed the choices down to a Grizzly G0443 1 1/2 hp cyclone unit or a Grizzly G0548Z 2 hp canister singe-stage dust collector and add a Thein-style separator.

There seems to be an almost religous polarization for and against cyclone dust collectors. There seems to be a lot of opinion and very little hard fact. From what I understand the cyclone collectors are a more integrated system that does a very good job of removing dust, keeping the air flow more consistent and keeping the filters cleaner.

The canister dust collectors move more air than the bag type filters but still get clogged quickly without a separator. The folks who use the Thein-style separators claim that they work as good as a dedicated cyclone collector, some say better.

What do you guys think? Which one would you buy?

Pete

 

[ehpoole]

Well, as the owner of an older-model JDS 2HP Cyclone (see pics in my album) it is probably self evident which camp I fall into. That said, I can not fathom why anyone would argue that a single-stage dust collector was more desirable, other than on price, than a two-stage cyclone collector. With a cyclone you effectively prevent 99.99% of your dust from ever reaching the cartridge filter, thus prolonging its useful life and airflow. You also avoid the risk of offcuts and fasteners damaging your impeller the way they can in a single-stage collector, though they do make a good racket bouncing off the sides of the cyclone before falling into the waste-bin. Cyclones also tend to have better static pressure ratings than single-stage collectors because they can accomodate tighter tolerances with regard to the impeller (no risk of objects impacting or interfering with the impeller).

That said, I would really recommend that you look at a minimum 2HP cyclone, especially if you will be using 4" flexible hose as opposed to larger diameter hose and ridgid ductwork. I'm just not sure that 1-1/2 HP is enough in a cyclone (I would figure about a 1/2HP loss in first-stage filtering -- no different really than the losses if you added a Thien seperator in front of a typical single-state collector).

Just my 2 cents. HTH

 

[merrill77]

There seems to be an almost religous polarization for and against cyclone dust collectors. There seems to be a lot of opinion and very little hard fact. From what I understand the cyclone collectors are a more integrated system that does a very good job of removing dust, keeping the air flow more consistent and keeping the filters cleaner.

The canister dust collectors move more air than the bag type filters but still get clogged quickly without a separator. The folks who use the Thein-style separators claim that they work as good as a dedicated cyclone collector, some say better.

Is your goal keeping shop clean? Or keeping your lungs clean? If the former, they'll all work well, to varying degrees...generally proportional to price. If the latter, then you are right - there is a lot of opinion and very little fact. I believe that the manufacturers want it that way. If you've looked at Bill Pentz's site, you'll find a good amount of real science. How much you buy into that depends, I suppose, on how you judge the popularity of his site and the feedback he has received. But I've been unable to find the level of testing and validation (with real dust measurements in a real shop) of any cyclone except the the ClearVue system based on his design. If you haven't already visited his site and are looking at this as a health issue, then you should check out his site.

Chris

 

[kooshball]

Check out this month's American Woodworker magazine; there is a nice list of portable cyclones reviewed there (there is one from Penn State for under $900).

I bought a cheap HP DC b/c it was cheap and added a filter to increase performance; that performance decreases rather quickly as the filter gets clogged. If for some reason my machine were to break I would spend the money and get a 2HP, 240V portable cyclone of some type....just my 2c.

 

[petebucy4638]

Thanks to everyone for the input. You convinced me to get a cyclone and to up the power from Grizzlys 1.5 hp unit. Grizzy cyclone become less competitive as the hp rating increases and Grizzly does not include a stand with their cyclones. All things considered, I chose an Oneida V-System 3000. It has a 3 hp motor with a HEPA filter and it includes a stand. It also has a two-year warranty as opposed to Grizzly's one year.

Once you get to the 3 hp range, the Oneida is actually less expensive Grizzly - go figure.

http://store.oneida-air.com/v-series3000-HEPA.aspx

Pete

 

[JimmyC]

How big is your shop ? Do you have enough room for a cyclone ? Can you put a cyclone in a different room ? Do you want to invest alot more money (1-2k) into 6" ductwork ? Your question brings up alot of other questions. If you have a 2hp Grizzly 1029Z, with a seperator attached, and no bag attached but blowing freely to the outside you will have everything you need (including health issues) covered DAMHIKT :mrgreen:, unless you have a very large shop.

The final word is that I would go with the cyclone if it was affordable to do (including piping), but if it's going to be on a cart and wheeled around from machine to machine, the DC and thien will work just fine for thousands less.

Figure out what will truly fit your shop and budget, then go from there.

Good luck,

 

[ehpoole]

Just to clear up some misconceptions, my (then brand-new, stationary) 2HP JDS Cyclone was $900 4 years ago. Their most recent mobile 2HP cyclone sells for around $1400 and other vendors offer quality 2HP cyclones in the vicinity of $1000 (and 3HP for $1500 to $1800). It's not really fair to suggest that a woodworker can save THOUSANDS by buying a single-stage collector and vent it outdoors. HUNDREDS of dollars certainly, but not thousands unless you intend to buy a super high-end uber-HP model.

If you have nearby neighbors (e.g. live in the city or suburbs) venting outdoors really is not an option, and if you heat or A/C your shop then venting outdoors is simply not an option unless you are prepared to pay a small fortune to heat or A/C your shop (not to mention significantly oversizing your heater or A/C to match the losses created by the DC). In such a case, you will also have to figure in the cost of a 1-micron filter to add to your single stage dust collector (most models, especially cheaper units unfortunately, seem to ship with 2-5 micron, or worse, filters). Plus the added cost for materials to build a Thien prefilter, which, like a cyclone, incurs some loss in performance, though, with the caveat that it will reduce the rate at which single-stage collector performance declines due to clogged filters. Not to mention a Thien prefilter (which substitues for the cyclone) generally makes a mobile single-stage unit considerably less mobile. If mobility is key, a mobile cyclone has nearly the same footprint as a dual-bag single-stage unit (or single-bag plus Thien) with much better overall performance. If mobility isn't important, save a few dollars by buying a stationary unit.

It's always ideal to improve indoor air quality by exchanging the air outdoors, but for most of us that simply isn't an option due to either of the cases above as well as other issues that may come into play.

As far as ductwork is considered, a cyclone will perform better for a given ductwork configuration than a single-stage DC due to it's greater static-pressure performance and more efficient impeller design. Even with less than ideal ductwork (such as 4-6" flexible ductwork, up to 20ft or so) you will get equal to or better performance from a cyclone than a single-stage DC (especially if each is equipped with comparable filters). While it is always optimal to setup any DC system with ideal ductwork, regardless of type or model chosen, buying a cyclone does not necessitate an immediate investment in high-end ductwork to deliver the same or better performance than a single-stage unit with an otherwise identical setup.

If you can afford the IMHO reasonable premium for investing in a cyclone DC, there is no reason not to do so. If the most you can swing is a single-stage DC with a 1-micron filter, then that is MUCH better than no DC at all. If you can vent outdoors without concern for the health of neighbors, family or pets, and never open your windows (or discharge many hundreds of feet away from house or downwind) and can tolerate the outdoor mess (fine dust coating discharge area) at your discharge point (or use a cyclone to capture the majority of the mess before venting outdoors) then thats great -- it just isn't a practical option for most.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[JimmyC]

Just to clear up some misconceptions, my (then brand-new, stationary) 2HP JDS Cyclone was $900 4 years ago. Their most recent mobile 2HP cyclone sells for around $1400 and other vendors offer quality 2HP cyclones in the vicinity of $1000 (and 3HP for $1500 to $1800). It's not really fair to suggest that a woodworker can save THOUSANDS by buying a single-stage collector and vent it outdoors. HUNDREDS of dollars certainly, but not thousands unless you intend to buy a super high-end uber-HP model.

If you have nearby neighbors (e.g. live in the city or suburbs) venting outdoors really is not an option, and if you heat or A/C your shop then venting outdoors is simply not an option unless you are prepared to pay a small fortune to heat or A/C your shop (not to mention significantly oversizing your heater or A/C to match the losses created by the DC). In such a case, you will also have to figure in the cost of a 1-micron filter to add to your single stage dust collector (most models, especially cheaper units unfortunately, seem to ship with 2-5 micron, or worse, filters). Plus the added cost for materials to build a Thien prefilter, which, like a cyclone, incurs some loss in performance, though, with the caveat that it will reduce the rate at which single-stage collector performance declines due to clogged filters. Not to mention a Thien prefilter (which substitues for the cyclone) generally makes a mobile single-stage unit considerably less mobile. If mobility is key, a mobile cyclone has nearly the same footprint as a dual-bag single-stage unit (or single-bag plus Thien) with much better overall performance. If mobility isn't important, save a few dollars by buying a stationary unit.

It's always ideal to improve indoor air quality by exchanging the air outdoors, but for most of us that simply isn't an option due to either of the cases above as well as other issues that may come into play.

As far as ductwork is considered, a cyclone will perform better for a given ductwork configuration than a single-stage DC due to it's greater static-pressure performance and more efficient impeller design. Even with less than ideal ductwork (such as 4-6" flexible ductwork, up to 20ft or so) you will get equal to or better performance from a cyclone than a single-stage DC (especially if each is equipped with comparable filters). While it is always optimal to setup any DC system with ideal ductwork, regardless of type or model chosen, buying a cyclone does not necessitate an immediate investment in high-end ductwork to deliver the same or better performance than a single-stage unit with an otherwise identical setup.

If you can afford the IMHO reasonable premium for investing in a cyclone DC, there is no reason not to do so. If the most you can swing is a single-stage DC with a 1-micron filter, then that is MUCH better than no DC at all. If you can vent outdoors without concern for the health of neighbors, family or pets, and never open your windows (or discharge many hundreds of feet away from house or downwind) and can tolerate the outdoor mess (fine dust coating discharge area) at your discharge point (or use a cyclone to capture the majority of the mess before venting outdoors) then thats great -- it just isn't a practical option for most.

Just my 2 cents.

First of all my statement should have been read properly, as it stated a DC rolled around (if that is what was needed) would cost a couple thousand less than fixed pipe Cyclone. The DC statement where it blows freely to the outside stated that it removed as much dust from the air (in a smaller shop environment) as a cyclone with a filter on it.

Second, there is almost no dust vented to the outside when using a thien type collector, so there is no mess, and yes I live in the country and have no neighbor problem. I just stated options, as there are many.

Third, if you really wanted a cyclone that worked well and money wasn't too much of a matter, then I'd go with the ClearVue as It seems superior to others. But alas, as I said before "that's just an option, and lord knows that in woodworking there are many to consider.

 

[petebucy4638]

Just to clear up some misconceptions, my (then brand-new, stationary) 2HP JDS Cyclone was $900 4 years ago. Their most recent mobile 2HP cyclone sells for around $1400 and other vendors offer quality 2HP cyclones in the vicinity of $1000 (and 3HP for $1500 to $1800). It's not really fair to suggest that a woodworker can save THOUSANDS by buying a single-stage collector and vent it outdoors. HUNDREDS of dollars certainly, but not thousands unless you intend to buy a super high-end uber-HP model.

If you have nearby neighbors (e.g. live in the city or suburbs) venting outdoors really is not an option, and if you heat or A/C your shop then venting outdoors is simply not an option unless you are prepared to pay a small fortune to heat or A/C your shop (not to mention significantly oversizing your heater or A/C to match the losses created by the DC). In such a case, you will also have to figure in the cost of a 1-micron filter to add to your single stage dust collector (most models, especially cheaper units unfortunately, seem to ship with 2-5 micron, or worse, filters). Plus the added cost for materials to build a Thien prefilter, which, like a cyclone, incurs some loss in performance, though, with the caveat that it will reduce the rate at which single-stage collector performance declines due to clogged filters. Not to mention a Thien prefilter (which substitues for the cyclone) generally makes a mobile single-stage unit considerably less mobile. If mobility is key, a mobile cyclone has nearly the same footprint as a dual-bag single-stage unit (or single-bag plus Thien) with much better overall performance. If mobility isn't important, save a few dollars by buying a stationary unit.

It's always ideal to improve indoor air quality by exchanging the air outdoors, but for most of us that simply isn't an option due to either of the cases above as well as other issues that may come into play.

As far as ductwork is considered, a cyclone will perform better for a given ductwork configuration than a single-stage DC due to it's greater static-pressure performance and more efficient impeller design. Even with less than ideal ductwork (such as 4-6" flexible ductwork, up to 20ft or so) you will get equal to or better performance from a cyclone than a single-stage DC (especially if each is equipped with comparable filters). While it is always optimal to setup any DC system with ideal ductwork, regardless of type or model chosen, buying a cyclone does not necessitate an immediate investment in high-end ductwork to deliver the same or better performance than a single-stage unit with an otherwise identical setup.

If you can afford the IMHO reasonable premium for investing in a cyclone DC, there is no reason not to do so. If the most you can swing is a single-stage DC with a 1-micron filter, then that is MUCH better than no DC at all. If you can vent outdoors without concern for the health of neighbors, family or pets, and never open your windows (or discharge many hundreds of feet away from house or downwind) and can tolerate the outdoor mess (fine dust coating discharge area) at your discharge point (or use a cyclone to capture the majority of the mess before venting outdoors) then thats great -- it just isn't a practical option for most.

Just my 2 cents.

In my case venting outdoors is probably not an option. I live in a community that has large lots but I suspect that venting a dust collector outside would not be an option if the wind were blowing in the right direction. The noise from the exhaust might be an issue too, not to mention the mess that it could create.

I have room for a cyclone in the shop. My plan is to run some hard duct along the ceiling with a couple of vertical drops to the bit tools and a drop or two to a location where I can roll the lesser used tools when they are needed. The drop to the table saw can be hard pipe all the way as can the one to the planer. The other ones will be a combination of hard pipe and flex pipe. I have still not decided if I want to use PVC or spiral pipe. PVC pipe can provide a duct system with perfect seals and no vacuum leaks. Spiral pipe is self-grounding, but is tougher to seal.

I chose the Oneida V-3000 largely because of its very good reputation and because I figured that a 3 hp system would have a some extra margin of capacity when dealing with flex pipe. It was only $100 more than the 2 hp model.

Pete

 

[petebucy4638]

How big is your shop ? Do you have enough room for a cyclone ? Can you put a cyclone in a different room ? Do you want to invest alot more money (1-2k) into 6" ductwork ? Your question brings up alot of other questions. If you have a 2hp Grizzly 1029Z, with a seperator attached, and no bag attached but blowing freely to the outside you will have everything you need (including health issues) covered DAMHIKT :mrgreen:, unless you have a very large shop.

The final word is that I would go with the cyclone if it was affordable to do (including piping), but if it's going to be on a cart and wheeled around from machine to machine, the DC and thien will work just fine for thousands less.

Figure out what will truly fit your shop and budget, then go from there.

Good luck,

I have not decided if I am going to run spiral pipe or pvc. Both have their advantages and disadvantage. In either case the cost of the duct work will only be a few hundred dollars. The shop is only around 500 ft2. Venting to the outside would not be an options

Pete

 

[JimmyC]

Pete,

Spiral pipe is not even needed, you can run 6" HVAC ductwork from Home Depot (just make sure that you don't use piping that is completely smooth), and save alot of money on pipe elbows and other accessories. The cost in piping is truly in the wyes ($40 apiece from Oneida) and in good quality gates. Don't run corrugated flex line if not needed, and if neededd limit it's length as it truly changes your flow. The 3hp unit is a great choice and I'm sure that you will be extremely happy with it.

Good Luck,

 

[McRabbet]

I would check with DaveO on local suppliers of 6" S&D PVC (ASTM D-2729) for your primary ductwork and buy your fittings (wyes, 45's, couplings) from Lowe's in their drain pipe aisle. Do not use Tees or short radius 90's since they are very inefficient. I paid about $15.00/10' length of pipe a few years ago. Not to question JimmyC's recomendation, I would not use the lightweight HVAC duct from the BORG because it is harder to seal and may fail if all gates were closed as it is very light gauge.

 

[petebucy4638]

Pete,

Spiral pipe is not even needed, you can run 6" HVAC ductwork from Home Depot (just make sure that you don't use piping that is completely smooth), and save alot of money on pipe elbows and other accessories. The cost in piping is truly in the wyes ($40 apiece from Oneida) and in good quality gates. Don't run corrugated flex line if not needed, and if neededd limit it's length as it truly changes your flow. The 3hp unit is a great choice and I'm sure that you will be extremely happy with it.

Good Luck,

I just read an article on the American Woodworker site about ductwork for dust collection. It used standard HVAC round galvanized duct (5") with lower resistance elbows. If I am not mistaken, I think that I can get "Y's" from my sheet metal duct supplier. Long sweeps are pretty easy to make up. A lot of issues with resistance to flow can be overcome by simply going to a larger diameter pipe.

In the AW article they used silicone to seal the elbows. We have a duct-seal product that works great, especially when reinforced with mesh tape.

Pete

 

[petebucy4638]

I would check with DaveO on local suppliers of 6" S&D PVC (ASTM D-2729) for your primary ductwork and buy your fittings (wyes, 45's, couplings) from Lowe's in their drain pipe aisle. Do not use Tees or short radius 90's since they are very inefficient. I paid about $15.00/10' length of pipe a few years ago. Not to question JimmyC's recomendation, I would not use the lightweight HVAC duct from the BORG because it is harder to seal and may fail if all gates were closed as it is very light gauge.

I have been seriously thinking about using PVC. It is very smooth and extremely strong, not to mention a perfect seal at every joint. Several years back my plumber installed a PVC dust collection duct system for one of my clients. It was pretty inexpensive and it worked great. Afterwards the painted all of the pipe dark grey. The client had been a navy man and he didn't like the look of raw PVC.

Pete

 

[Allan Campbell]

Pete, you made a good choice. The one in my shop is a 2hp (with a 3hp motor) oneida commercial and it works great. If you go with pvc pipe, agri-supply in Garner has 6" s&d pipe in stock at a good price. It's a lot lighter and cheaper than schedule 40 and you can use the same fittings.

 

[Ben325e]

Oneida 5 HP cyclone on east nc craigslist

http://eastnc.craigslist.org/for/2125566506.html

 

[JimmyC]

. Not to question JimmyC's recomendation, I would not use the lightweight HVAC duct from the BORG because it is harder to seal and may fail if all gates were closed as it is very light gauge.

It won't fail, I put 12' of pipe dircectly onto the inlet of a 2hp. Grizzly 1029 DC then while it was running I slammed it shut with a piece of foam insulation. No collapse, this stuff is better than you think, just don't get the smooth side stuff.