Did you know...Freud blades for Festool Saws?

[Splint Eastwood]

Here's a dirty little industry secret, some of you may or may not know.

Vendors of Festool products, for fear of retribution, are not allowed to speak of alternative accessories, or replacement parts, etc... for Festool products?

For example, Freud sells saw blades for the Festool TS 55/75 as evidenced in the following link:

http://www.amazon.com/Freud-LU86R00...l-28-Teeth/dp/B002IPH968/ref=pd_ys_ir_all_112

Now why would I want to spend say, $100 for a Festool replacement blade, when @ $40 would suffice..?

Hmmm....:eusa_thin

I wonder what other alternatives are out there, I am not aware of?

Just thinking out loud.

Thanks for letting me share,

Matt

 

[zapdafish]

http://prosawblades.com/products.php?cat=33

tenryu blades have a real good rep

 

[Splint Eastwood]

http://prosawblades.com/products.php?cat=33

tenryu blades have a real good rep

Thanks, I will check out link.

M

 

[Splint Eastwood]

PM sent to our Resident Freud expert:

Requesting a complete listing of Freud Blades that fit all Festool saws! (Shameless plug ?)

Nah. :gar-Bi

Im just lazy, don't want to research:gar-Bi

M

 

[ashley_phil]

i don't think its a consipiracy among festool dealers, i think it's just a very new freud product.

i saw an article or press release about it recently.

 

[Splint Eastwood]

i don't think its a consipiracy among festool dealers, i think it's just a very new freud product.

i saw an article or press release about it recently.

No, not a conspiracy amongst Festool dealers,

Its Festool foisting their policies on Dealers , big difference. IMHO

We as customers are not being given a choice, if one exists.

M

 

[Douglas Robinson]

Not sure I follow the train of thought here. A manufacturer (Festool here) makes a product and its accessories. It licenses dealers to sell them. It then may recquire those same dealers to not direct buyers to alternative accessories that work with their tools. What is wrong with this? If there are accessories from other manufacturers that work with those products the other manufacturers will get the word out, somehow.

I mean, I would expect Ford to tell me you can buy our official Ford parts for $X or you can by some other brand for $X/2. Over time if the original manufacturer's prices for their accessories are too high and there are alternative sources for their accessories, they will have to lower their pricces to compete. This is good.

So, I am glad to know of alternative sources for Festool accessories, but I do not see a conspiracy or take issue with their pricing.

JMTCW.:icon_thum

Doug

 

[Splint Eastwood]

Not sure I follow the train of thought here. A manufacturer (Festool here) makes a product and its accessories. It licenses dealers to sell them. It then may recquire those same dealers to not direct buyers to alternative accessories that work with their tools. What is wrong with this? If there are accessories from other manufacturers that work with those products the other manufacturers will get the word out, somehow.

I mean, I would expect Ford to tell me you can buy our official Ford parts for $X or you can by some other brand for $X/2. Over time if the original manufacturer's prices for their accessories are too high and there are alternative sources for their accessories, they will have to lower their pricces to compete. This is good.

So, I am glad to know of alternative sources for Festool accessories, but I do not see a conspiracy or take issue with their pricing.


JMTCW.:icon_thum

Doug

Doug, Thanks for your experienced reply! Much appreciated.:icon_thum

My concern is not with their pricing, although in my opinion just a "tad" overpriced. It's with their
marketing practices as it relates to WW Dealers.

As in your Ford example, Ford Dealers represent a stand alone business, i.e. no other competitors products exist in their dealerships (other than Ford licensed, etc...).

But in a WWing store many products are for sale, other than Festool. I''ve had discussions which I was told, Festool, "strongly discourages" retailers from discussing competitors products as suitable for Festool products.

Thus hindering WW ing consumers from knowing a suitable replacement exists. This could be perceived as "Restraint of Trade". Although, I assume, no written, contractual evidence of this exists, it's implied. Other contractual sanctions could be imposed, to punish for supplying the consumer helpful information.

I agree that it's up to other Manufacturers to get the word out, but this is usually done by retail store promotions, etc....... thus a conundrum exists.

Your thoughts on this would be most valuable.

Matt

 

[Douglas Robinson]

Interesting point you make about WW dealers that sell many different brands. I will have to think about that. First thoughts are you can put anything, as long as its legal, into a contract. SO perhaps Festool puts it in the dealer contract and the dealers agree to it. I dont think it raises a freedom of speech issue, as that only applies to the government restricting the freedom of speech.

People agree to legal settlements all the time where the sides are restricted from disclosing the details. So private parties are allowed to sign contracts restricting what that can and cannot say.

I will think about it some more and see if I have more to add. :icon_scra

 

[Splint Eastwood]

Interesting point you make about WW dealers that sell many different brands. I will have to think about that. First thoughts are you can put anything, as long as its legal, into a contract. SO perhaps Festool puts it in the dealer contract and the dealers agree to it. I dont think it raises a freedom of speech issue, as that only applies to the government restricting the freedom of speech.

People agree to legal settlements all the time where the sides are restricted from disclosing the details. So private parties are allowed to sign contracts restricting what that can and cannot say.

I will think about it some more and see if I have more to add. :icon_scra

Doug, this is great! Thanks!

I have no doubt, Contracts between Festool and Dealers are legal. But is about their purported trade practices, done on an implied level, I have concerns about. If Store Dealers are being restricted from mentioning a suitable, competitive alternative, it seems Dealers are being "hindered" from selling competitors products. Therefore, restraining their trade. (not an issue of free speech).
But of "restraint of trade".

Not an Atty's opinion, but of active consumer's concern,

M

 

[Splint Eastwood]

Here's another example where WW Dealers suffer.

Festool's pricing policy is uniform. All authorized dealers have to charge the same price listed.

However, WW Dealers are at a competitive disadvantage, due to ......Sales Tax.

Amazon charges the same price, no tax. No shiping for preferred customers.

We as a savvy consumer, know this, but go to the local WW store to "Demo" then.....

Go home and order online. Saving at least @8% sales tax.

How fair is this to the WW store who hires;trains; pays employees to hawk their tools.

Distinct and unfair to WW stores, who I know I would love to patronize.

Why Doesn't Festool let Brick and Mortar Dealers, discount their Products by at least the sales tax amount to be competitive with On Line?

M

 

[BSHuff]

I have never understood why having a minimum price you are allowed to charge for items is legal. You are only allowed to charge this certain price we give you, take it or leave it.

 

[Douglas Robinson]

Here's another example where WW Dealers suffer.

Festool's pricing policy is uniform. All authorized dealers have to charge the same price listed.

However, WW Dealers are at a competitive disadvantage, due to ......Sales Tax.

Amazon charges the same price, no tax. No shiping for preferred customers.

We as a savvy consumer, know this, but go to the local WW store to "Demo" then.....

Go home and order online. Saving at least @8% sales tax.

How fair is this to the WW store who hires;trains; pays employees to hawk their tools.

Distinct and unfair to WW stores, who I know I would love to patronize.

Why Doesn't Festool let Brick and Mortar Dealers, discount their Products by at least the sales tax amount to be competitive with On Line?

M

This is not how I conduct business. To save the 8% sales tax the person who buys on line is hurting the local dealer and is hurting their State by not paying the sales tax. I want to be able to bring something back to a brick and mortar store if I have a problem, I want to be able to hold it and try it out before buying. I want to know I am taking home what I thought I was buying. It is not worth it to me or my community to nickle and dime this way. I have done business at the local WW'ing stores enough over the past 5 years that I find they treat me very well and appreciate my business. I appreciate there presence here.

This is a separate topic from the Festool pricing.

As to how having "a minimum price you are allowed to charge for items is legal," my question is what law is it breaking. You want to sell my stuff then you contractually agree to sell at the prices I designate. Let say I am in the pen making business and I bring them to a store to sell and we agree that they must sell for no less than $35 dollars each. We sign a contract ot that affect. The store in then contractually obligate dto sell according to those guidelines. This contract is not illegal. To sell them for less than $35 would be in violation of the contract.

If I have 5 stores under contract, why should one be allowed to undercut the price that all have agreed to?

I understand that Festool is expensive. I understand not everyone is willing to pay the price for them. But it does not seem reasonable to try to find Festool's business model to be a violation of the law. Deals like this are actually quite common in the US.

 

[Splint Eastwood]

I have never understood why having a minimum price you are allowed to charge for items is legal. You are only allowed to charge this certain price we give you, take it or leave it.

Brings up another issue/question:

How is it that Retailers (e.g. Walmart) are able to negotiate huge volume buying discounts, and then "pass" on savings to consumers. Thus making their prices more competitive than their retailing counterparts?

How does Festool manage to avoid Big Retailers from negotiating favorable price breaks, in order to make some Retailers more competitive than others?

Can they contractual obligate all Retailers to what would appear to be "monopolistic" pricing?

:eusa_thin:eusa_thin

Why hasn't this issue been addressed before?

And where's my lunch I ordered? :gar-Bi

M

PS posted before Doug's post, but ..... still wondering.

 

[Douglas Robinson]

How does Festool manage to avoid Big Retailers from negotiating favorable price breaks, in order to make some Retailers more competitive than others?

That is an easy one. Do you see Festool in Walmart? No. Why probably because Festool requires dealers to sell their products at their prices.

Can they contractual obligate all Retailers to what would appear to be "monopolistic" pricing?

Be careful how you use the term monpoly. Are there alternative tools to Festools? Yes, can you buy them easily? Yes. Thus Festool does not have a monoply. Controlling the pricing of your own product is NOT a monopoly.

Most people that use Festool products are pleased by the quality and the results they get with the tools. I have no idea yet as to the life expectancy of their tools. But, why is there so much resentment about their price structure? If dealers did not want to sell them, or did not feel they could make a worthwhile profit for themselves they would not sell them. So the dealers do not seem to have an issue here.

BTW: I hope my responses are taken in the way that I intend them and are not taken in any way other than the informative way I intend. Being a lawyer, I find people often have problems with legal issues. :dontknow:

 

[Splint Eastwood]

How does Festool manage to avoid Big Retailers from negotiating favorable price breaks, in order to make some Retailers more competitive than others?

That is an easy one. Do you see Festool in Walmart? No. Why probably because Festool requires dealers to sell their products at their prices.

Can they contractual obligate all Retailers to what would appear to be "monopolistic" pricing?

Be careful how you use the term monpoly. Are there alternative tools to Festools? Yes, can you buy them easily? Yes. Thus Festool does not have a monoply. Controlling the pricing of your own product is NOT a monopoly.

Most people that use Festool products are pleased by the quality and the results they get with the tools. I have no idea yet as to the life expectancy of their tools. But, why is there so much resentment about their price structure? If dealers did not want to sell them, or did not feel they could make a worthwhile profit for themselves they would not sell them. So the dealers do not seem to have an issue here.

BTW: I hope my responses are taken in the way that I intend them and are not taken in any way other than the informative way I intend. Being a lawyer, I find people often have problems with legal issues. :dontknow:

Doug,

Excellently pointed out. Love the logic.

As far as responses are concerned, certainly not taken wrongly. On the contrary, I LOVE GETTING FREE LEGAL ADVICE:gar-La;.

Still, I feel Retailers are being restrained from informing consumers of alternative replacement products for Festool items.

Thanks, Was it good for you? :gar-Bi

M

 

[BSHuff]

Without going too political/legal. To me saying you are not allowed to sell an item for less than X or we will no longer allow you to sell it is price fixing and consumer anti-trust. Free market economy thing. It has been ruled to be marginally acceptable by the supreme court in the past, but it still stinks. Why should a store be able to set their own prices? That is the way a free market economy works! You are cheating the customers by establishing a required price of entry. I as a store owner might be fine with selling 100@ 5$ profit, you might be fine with making $10 profit selling 50, but to tell someone you are not allowed to even sell it for less than a $20 profit is a vendor that is preventing the creation of a free market price.

 

[zapdafish]

My understanding is Festool wants their dealers to compete on service, not price. Plus there are others like Leigh that are always excluded from sales so Festool isn't the only one with this policy.

 

[zapdafish]

Without going too political/legal. To me saying you are not allowed to sell an item for less than X or we will no longer allow you to sell it is price fixing and consumer anti-trust.

I think this would apply if there were no alternatives and the item were a necessity.

 

[Bas]

That is the way a free market economy works!

Personally, I love deals, discounts and sales. Sometimes I wonder whether I love the concept more than the actual dollars saved So I am not a big fan of this uniform price structure, there's no thrill of finding a bargain! But, when it comes to free market...if a store should be allowed to set its own price, why shouldn't a tool manufacturer like Festool be allowed to do the same? Isn't that free market too?

I think Festool chose the right strategy. Their products are expensive and a niche market, so volume will always be lower than tools developed for the contractor market (DeWalt, Ridgid etc.). With low volume, if there is insufficient margin on the product, dealers won't carry it. Klingspor etc. can't compete with Home Depot and Amazon on volume. And if you can only order it online and not see it in the store to touch/ test/ experience it, sales collapse. Plus, then the few online retailers that do sell it have enormous leverage with the manufacturer on what _they_ are willing to pay wholesale. Think Wal-Mart. That's free market too.

Doesn't mean I didn't wish the stuff was cheaper though.... :tool: But you get what you pay for.