Deck support

[mike_wood]

My wife's family has a beach house. Recently, I went down to replace some well worn deck railing. Since I don't go down very often I took a good look at the deck to see what else had to be done. I was surprised that the joists spanning the 14' length were 2X8s. My recollection of codes is that anything over 10' requires a 2X10. The rim joists were doubled 2X8's. More concerning was how the joists were connected - toe nailed and face nailed - nary a joist hanger to be found. What got me concerned about this is the condition of the nails all over the deck. They are failing from rust. When I took down the old railing some of the nails could be broken by hand. So, I have to wonder about the condition of the joist nails.

I am wondering if I am over reacting here. My thought on how to fix was to either (easy fix) install some SS joist hangers or (harder fix) sister all of the joists and then install SS double joist hangers. Any suggestions or comments will be appreciated.

 

[CrealBilly]

run a support down the center that way you would span @ 7'what size are the bands? 2x10's? is there a 2x2 on the bottom of the band to hold the joists up? I don't like joist hangers much. Beware of griprite nails they used to be good, but the last couple of boxes I bought they bent like twig in windstorm.

 

[Travis Porter]

How old is the deck? I wonder if whoever built it got a permit?

No, I don't think you are overreacting. Personally, I would do the ss joist hangers with ss nails. Get ready for sticker shock.

 

[CrealBilly]

How old is the deck? I wonder if whoever built it got a permit?

No, I don't think you are overreacting. Personally, I would do the ss joist hangers with ss nails. Get ready for sticker shock.

Yeah pinch your butt cheeks together, cause you know what's coming :gar-La;

 

[mike_wood]

Jeff, the bands (rims) are doubled 2X8s. Nope, no 2X2 cleats, just face nail/toe nail. I am not sure why you don't list joist hangers. I have used them for a long time and have had no problems.

As to the cost of SS joist hangers, yea, they are pricey but way less than a lawsuit. The deck was built with the house - I think that is the problem. It has been my personal experience that builders are poor deck builders. I am sure there was a permit but I don't have much faith in the inspection process. I have observed too many problems with mine/family/friends houses to believe it is a robust system.

 

[CrealBilly]

Jeff, the bands (rims) are doubled 2X8s. Nope, no 2X2 cleats, just face nail/toe nail. I am not sure why you don't list joist hangers. I have used them for a long time and have had no problems.

As to the cost of SS joist hangers, yea, they are pricey but way less than a lawsuit. The deck was built with the house - I think that is the problem. It has been my personal experience that builders are poor deck builders. I am sure there was a permit but I don't have much faith in the inspection process. I have observed too many problems with mine/family/friends houses to believe it is a robust system.

Well if you like joist hangers then go for it. You are free to choose my fellow American.

 

[McRabbet]

If the deck is older than 10 years old, then I would replace it in its entirety. I'd be willing to bet that if it is attached to the house, they did not use through bolts to tie the rim band to the house band -- NC Code requires 5/8" Galvanized through bolts to insure proper connections. You also did not indicate the deck imensions or height, important factors in corrective action. I've built several large decks, both attached and free-standing, and I prefer to support the deck platform on a set of beams supported by 6x6 posts buried 42"-48" in concrete. It sounds like this deck was built as a full cantilever attached to the house with posts only at the outer band. IMHO, is is unsafe at any height.

 

[mike_wood]

You are right I did not give complete info. The deck is 8'X14' attached to the house but for some reason I did not look at how. Considering how the deck is built I anticipate it is likely not attached properly. The supports are 8X8s at all corners. The rim joist sit on top of the supports so I feel good about basic support. It is about 12' of the ground. There is more to this I should have mentioned. It (the deck) is attached to a larger porch (8'X20') and is constructed the same way. Thus I am anticipating shoring up both structures.

Thanks for the comments and suggestions.

 

[McRabbet]

I would suggest that you use Lowe's Deck Designer software or buy the one that Home Depot has for sale (they did have an online one a year or so ago). You can design the deck using some existing conditions (dimensions, orientation of the two decks, joist sizes and spacing, etc) as if you were designing it from scratch. It should provide you with the appropriate spacing for posts and beams that will give you proper spans to support the 2x8 joists you have now.

If your wife's family ever wants to sell the property, they will have problems if it is not built to code -- NC is quite strict after some bad accidents in the past 15 years. The through bolting to the house can only be handled if you can get to the back side -- your other choice would to support the inner side of the deck on posts and beams as well. HTH.

 

[ScottM]

If the deck is older than 10 years old, then I would replace it in its entirety. I'd be willing to bet that if it is attached to the house, they did not use through bolts to tie the rim band to the house band -- NC Code requires 5/8" Galvanized through bolts to insure proper connections. You also did not indicate the deck imensions or height, important factors in corrective action. I've built several large decks, both attached and free-standing, and I prefer to support the deck platform on a set of beams supported by 6x6 posts buried 42"-48" in concrete. It sounds like this deck was built as a full cantilever attached to the house with posts only at the outer band. IMHO, is is unsafe at any height.

My BIL just added a deck and addition to his house in Littleton. The code now calls for 6 x 6 post or larger depending on height. Yes, the post holes had to be 48". Everything except the flooring and rails had to be bolted together.

 

[DaveD]

Just remember that if it fails/falls down and you were the last one to touch it someone will probably sue you if they get hurt.

Doing it for yourself/family is one thing. Doing it on a property that is rented is an entirely different ballgame.

Before I'd sister the joists I'd probably tear the whole thing down and build it right. Probably wouldn't cost anymore, you would end up with a much nicer deck and it probably wouldn't take much longer.

Also get the latest applicable code. There are typically newer rules on how to attach the raling supports. Be prepared for sticker shock on simpson hangers. Also pay attention to the kind of lumber you are using. Some require stainless steel hangers and nails. Also hangers typically have specific nails you have to use.

 

[CrealBilly]

Just remember that if it fails/falls down and you were the last one to touch it someone will probably sue you if they get hurt.

Doing it for yourself/family is one thing. Doing it on a property that is rented is an entirely different ballgame.

Before I'd sister the joists I'd probably tear the whole thing down and build it right. Probably wouldn't cost anymore, you would end up with a much nicer deck and it probably wouldn't take much longer.

Also get the latest applicable code. There are typically newer rules on how to attach the raling supports. Be prepared for sticker shock on simpson hangers. Also pay attention to the kind of lumber you are using. Some require stainless steel hangers and nails. Also hangers typically have specific nails you have to use.

Somehow I knew a lawsuit would be mentioned. Doing things according to the rules is one thing but why do some insist hanging the fear of a lawsuit over others? This question has been bugging me every since I first read this thread. It's a mentality that seems to be ingrained into the way many people think. It also makes people make some pretty dumb decisions, like leaving a bunch of perfectly good wood in the woods to rot for fear if someone got hurt they would sue. That may be the way some people think - but I don't.

 

[McRabbet]

Jeff,

I agree with you in principle, but unfortunately we live in a litigious society. If a deck failed and personal injury resulted, a lawsuit is a likely outcome. I also agree with DaveD that a rebuild is the best course of action.

That is why I have always built them to the latest NC Code with a local permit when I've done them (I've done 3 in the past 2-1/2 years). Having a local inspector's Certificate of Occupancy is worth the $50 I've (actually the customer) paid for the Permit. Of course, none have failed.

I've also moved this to the DIY Forum.

 

[CrealBilly]

Jeff,

I agree with you in principle, but unfortunately we live in a litigious society.

Agreed and it's really too bad, the fear of a law suite makes people less prone to be kind and generous. :gar-Cr

 

[DaveD]

The reason I mentioned a potential lawsuit is because a deck that is 12 off the ground and put together the way the OP mentioned is destined to fail some time in the future. Typically when it is overloaded. And it will probably fail catastrophically if it is just held together with a bunch of rusty nails. You don't want to be the good friend doing a patchwork fix in this situation.

Family might not sue you but a renter (and their guests that get hurt) will darn sure sue you. Their lawyer will go after everyone that ever touched the deck.

Getting a permit and having the deck pass inspection will supposedly show it was at least built to code (since code is minimum, congratulations you passed with a D- grade :gar-Bi) but it will not protect you from possible liability. Nor is the issuer of the code/permit/inspection responsible for future failures. Municipalities are typically protected from that.

Bottom line, fix it right and have it meet the current code even if you don't get a permit.

 

[mike_wood]

The reason I mentioned lawsuits is my daughter is a lawyer and so is my daughter-in-law. Spend 5 minutes with either one of them, telling you about lawsuits they know about or have had a hand in, and you will realize how vulnerable you are to economic ruin with a lawsuit.

Back on the subject: short of tearing the whole structure down, which I don't think is needed since the supporting posts, knee braces and all joists are all in great shape, I think I will go first doubling the joists then use hangers. I will put blocking across the center. I checked with McFeeleys and the SS hangers & nails aren't that bad - $6-7 ea for hangers. Not too bad considering.

 

[Gotcha6]

I'd have to say you need to do it right whatever you do. The advice about lawsuits is spot on. If you do ANYTHING to this deck, you own it as far as liability is concerned. The standard is such that no matter whether you are doing it for financial gain or free for family, it must be done to the standards of the code regulating it. Anything less puts you at risk. If the family doesn't want to pay to do it right, walk away.

 

[CaptnA]

perhaps I ought to come check this out personally.... I have a couple of weeks off after June 3. Shouldn't take more than a week or so to inspect it thoroughly.
After long and careful evaluation, I could get back with you. I'd have to bring my evaluation crew with me, by the way.
I'll have more time in August should I need to come back and recheck any points that need reviewing.....
WIll await your decision.
BTW, since you're a member here, no charge for initial inspection and consultation
:gar-Bi

now with my first offer out of the way...

with the conditions you've described I'd honestly consider totally rebuilding it. age, weather, exposure to the conditions there would urge me to wrap up its service life. I've done deck repairs and wound up totally redoing the job as more problems surfaced in a short time. The BAD stuff is evident, what isn't evident may soon be. Its all exposed to the same things - some just hides it better.