CPSC To Address Tablesaw Safety

[merrill77]

OK I am going to sound like a total idiot by asking this question.... but I have never understood the whole riving knife concept...

I have always removed them on my tools and never noticed any difference

What is the whole idea here?

Riving knives have been relatively rare until recently. Are you referring to a splitter?

Anyway, a riving knife rides very close to the blade and rises/lowers with it. It makes it very unlikely for wood to pinch or otherwise come in contact with the rear of the blade, which would result in kickback. I've have a few kickback incidents and a riving knife would have prevented every one of them.

 

[paul dyar]

The injuries I have had in the shop had nothing to do with the machine being unsafe. I was doing something I knew better than to do. You can get injured on most any machine if you are careless. The next thing you know they will pass a law that prevents parents from buying their kids happy meals.
Paul

 

[Gofor]

Lets look at the math: CPSC says 10 fingers lost a day (is that table saws or table and miter saws, and is it just the US?) But lets say its the US with 300 million people. We have 5000 members on NCWW. Because we are woodworkers, and most of us have table saws, that indicates we use them much more often than the average person. But, if we just go with the average numbers, not figuring in the heavily weighted hours per year of use, that means that on average, 2 NCWW members will lose a finger every month. Yep, 24 a year. Don't think that is the case.

So, that begs the question: Just who are the people losing these fingers in TS accidents? Is it possibly related to the use of cheap table top saws that are unstable, have ridiculous safety aspects because the fences wobble like a noodle and the table won't support anything bigger than a cutting board? Maybe the people using them are the same ones that have 180,000 accidents a year using a lawn mower? (Yep, another "statistic" that which equals 493 per day, 49 times the table saw rate). Don't see anyone pushing for "flesh-sensing" technology on the Murray mowers at HD.

Yes, loss of a finger is traumatic. Life changing? Not according to the US government. A combat soldier gets no compensation from the VA for loss of a finger. Hand - yes. Finger - No. Guess its not that big a problem after all.

Mandating flesh-sensing technology on all table saws is not warranted. Some investigating into the accident rates relative to types of saws maybe, but pales in the priority of addressing the plague of the man-eating lawnmowers.

JMTCW

Go

PS: Dan: there is a difference between a riving knife and a splitter/guard. If your saw has a true riving knife, I can't think of a reason not to leave it installed. (don't have one so may b ignorant on some of the complications of one).

 

[dlrion]

Yeah I guess I meant a splitter - not a riving knife...

I guess the concept makes sense. I haven't had problems with flinging wood across the shop, although I have heard of it happening...

 

[Bas]

Lets look at the math: CPSC says 10 fingers lost a day (is that table saws or table and miter saws, and is it just the US?) But lets say its the US with 300 million people. We have 5000 members on NCWW. Because we are woodworkers, and most of us have table saws, that indicates we use them much more often than the average person. But, if we just go with the average numbers, not figuring in the heavily weighted hours per year of use, that means that on average, 2 NCWW members will lose a finger every month. Yep, 24 a year. Don't think that is the case.

Mark, I don't think the math is quite right. If 300 million people lose 10 fingers per day, then 5,000 people lose 10/60,000 fingers per day. Multiply by 365 and we come to 0.06 fingers per year for our community. Strictly speaking averages, that's roughly one every 16 years.

Naturally, our community is a heavy user of table saws, so the number should be much higher.

 

[Grumpybear]

And then, there is texting while driving...maybe texting while sawing...and steps in apartment buildings. We simply cannot protect people from themselves. The laws used to be to protect the people, provide a safe environment. Are we now advocating a socialistic approach to home hobbies? And, I may someday buy a Kia, but if I do, I want it to be a choice and not a government mandate...just thought about my hedge shears. What would it cost to put a flesh sensor on them? And, that wouldn't even protect the extension cord...I have one that was severed last summer when a close friend was using them! Saw Stop will desensitize people to the inherent danger of a table saw.

 

[Dragon]

The next thing you know they will pass a law that prevents parents from buying their kids happy meals.
Paul

They're already working on that one in California.

Laws are great so long as people abide by them. Folks these days seem all to eager for "the government to do something" about this or that when in actuality, it's the individual that needs to rethink their own actions. If I get a blister on my foot from a new pair of Nike's, it it their fault or mine? If I smack my thumb with my new Stanley hammer, is it Stanleys' fault or mine? Everyone is looking to hit the legal lottery these days since that seems to be infinitely more likely than buying a Power Ball ticket.

Mandated safety benefits the mandators more so than the public. Anyone heard about the "new government regulations" coming out in 2014 which "mandate" rear-view cameras on vehicles to prevent backing over your child? See what I mean? I have no problem with safety and safety education, but both of those have to be implemented by the users. No amount of legislation or legalese is going to reduce stupidity. Yeah, I've been stupid myself and left my DNA on a few projects and tools in the process. I chalk it up to life and me not paying attention to what I was doing and/or taking shortcuts and playing the odds. Most times, "I" bleed, not the project I'm working on.

I sincerely hope the above was not too non-PC. I call it like I see it.:icon_thum

 

[BKind2Anmls]

I don't understand the concept that putting the technology on table saws will price hobbyists out of the market. You don't need a table saw to be a woodworker.

 

[JRD]

Mass production drives down the cost of virtually everything.

So I wonder, if a flesh sensing device were to be mandated on all table saws in 5 years or so, how much would it actually add to the cost of a saw? Once that cost is understood, then a real cost/ benefit comparison might be made.

 

[scsmith42]

I'm thinking along the lines that table saws provided for others to use should probably have some type of enhanced safety technology under workplace safety rules. Saws used in schools should definitely have enhanced safety technology.

For saws purchased for personal use the technology should be optional, with no penalties imposed if the user chooses not to purchase the enhanced technology.

Existing companies that provide saws for employees to use should have a multi-year phase in period in order to upgrade to new technology.

The rules should allow for substitution of other safety options - such as guards, power feeder, or other devices that would reasonably prevent the employee's fingers from being in danger. A company should not be penalized if they are already taking prudent steps to provide a safe working environment.

Employees who knowingly bypass the safety features (on their own initiative) should not have any legal recourse if something bad happens.

My 2 cents.

 

[Guy in Paradise]

How many saws are really in the schools?

The original article brings up the topic of school children, but every high school I have seen in the last 15 years of teaching has, unfortunately, gotten rid of their woodshops and tablesaws. Even the school I am in now, the only one in the DOD Asia system that still has a woodshop, plans on getting rid of it this summer. I hate to see all of the hands-on activities slowly being removed from our schools. I am not sure how schools prepare kids to become engineers without any building experience, but I guess that is the plan.

Secondly, Bas is correct, when the numbers are correctly crunched, the incident factors are really low. Cars, motorcycles, kitchen knives, slippery ice, microwave fires, and others, all seem to have a much greater injury rate than tablesaws. And most schools are getting rid of their drivers education programs, sending kids to commercial schools, and also are removing the technical skills shops, further detracting from providing any hands-on programs. It seems that all the focus is on the computers, not on understanding the workings of the myriad systems that people should know a little about (electricity, plumbing, vehicles, woodwork, or any of the other life skills that used to be taught). Education is the key, but, I guess, not the expectation.

Bottom line, the original article is filled some very skewed information. It is unfortunate that one of the best books was titled "How to lie with statistics" as it might have made a better impact if the title was not so dramatic and targeted the true concept of how to select or manipulate data to get what you want into a public statement.

And back to woodworking, the lawyers and patent holders, always seem to want to minimize the discussion on using good safety practices with holddowns, finger boards, push sticks, sleds, etc. It seems that safety isn't taught, or expected anymore, as all tools are expected to be idiot proof. And as they become more safety foolproof, it seems that my choices become fewer, and my ability to have open opinions less acceptable. Woodworking and tablesaws are only one of the many areas being constantly attacked on the excuse of safety. Every time it seems new rules are imposed, money has to be spent to comply, often for certain types of items, that special interests groups lobbied for.

Hopefully, I am not getting into the "flaming" realm that BAS alluded to. I could say a lot more, but will refrain. I am just a science teacher, who is also the school safety officer, who loves woodworking, and sees less and less common sense and more politics guiding our school curriculums.

 

[Guy in Paradise]

Some good clarification in this article

Here's a different spin on handling this problem:
Should We License Table Saws
And If We Did, Would You Pass the Test?
http://blogs.popularwoodworking.com/editorsblog/Should+We+License+Table+Saws.aspx?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+PopularWoodworking+%28Popular+Woodworking%29

Although the data still seems incomplete and concluded for us, not given to us in a non-skewed way. Hey, I take offense to idea that old guys like me have most of the safety incidents. :eusa_thin Although, I have taken all of my woodworking classes, which is many, in the last 10 years. And I do get a eye checkup exam every year, and if needed, new glasses. And, I do seem to spend a lot more time on setup before a cut than ever.

Maybe there should be a minimal certification process. A course for users, apparently mostly home users over 50, according to the data, that could cover the basics of proper use and safety. I wonder who the best overlying organization would be to implement this program and then certify the instructors? Of course, being attached to the DOD on a military base, I have already taken a base course, and also several at Wood craft stores when in the states. Is education and certification a better approach than requiring all saws to have a specific technology? It would seem so to me. Of course, if we are all registered, will someone have to monitor these lists? Does that mean our privacy might be intruded on and inspectors would need to come by every so often? What would a woodworking police officer look like? :icon_scra Sorry, maybe a poor attempt at a little humor.

 

[Tarhead]

Here are a few words from Bob Lang from Popular Woodworking

Table Saw Injury Numbers in Perspective

http://blogs.popularwoodworking.com/editorsblog/Table+Saw+Injury+Numbers+In+Perspective.aspx