Bench Dog Spacing Question

[cpowell]

Here's a shot of my end vise, opened until the guide rods are just beyond their support bracket.

The opening is about 11.25 inches in this pic and the vise outer jaw is just under two inches thick, so the overall vise opening with the outer jaw mounted is somewhere around 9.25 inches. Is this pic a good position to consider for maximum jaw opening or can I go a tad wider?

The guide rods are 6.5 inches on center. Centering the benchtop dogs on the laminated maple outside the posts, avoiding the glue line, would give me about 10.5 inches on center between the two rows of bench dogs.

Questions: Should I make my first row of dogs in the top around 9 inches in from the vise dog hole centerline - a little less than jaw opening? And space each additional dog going down the bench at 9 inches on center?

The 10.5 inches between rows seems kinda wide. Is the idea to use a single row of dogs for narrow stock and just use the two rows for stock wide enough to span them, i.e. 11 inches or wider?

Regarding dog holes in the vise jaw...how deep do I bore? The jaws are around 6 inches deep. I haven't decided if I will make some dogs or just buy some metal dogs. These look nice but are really pricey. Are they worth the cost? http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=31127&cat=1,41637,41645

I put the second coat of Watco Danish oil on the bottom areas and vise jaws tonight. I'm ready to drill the jaw dog holes then flip the top onto the base and clean up the endcap and apron joints so they're flush with the top, bore top dog holes, sand and finish the top. I'm thinking three coats of Danish oil for the top. Getting closer to the goal! :-D (still need to build the base cabs but I can use the bench in the meantime).

Chuck

 

[Jonz]

I don't have an end vise so I can't offer help there, but I do use the bench pups and the wonder pup clamp. My dog holes are spaced 5" on center but the pup has a lot less travel than a vise does. You do want to consider the fact that your vise is not a quick release and if it won't quite reach on one hole, you'd have a lot of cranking it back to get to the next one if they are very far apart. I keep some different size 3/4 blocks of oak on the back edge of the bench, lots of times I just stick a block in there to keep from having to crank the vise very far.

The round Veritas dogs are great to me. One advantage is that I do mostly smaller work so I work with 1/4, 3/8 and 1/2 stock a lot. When I plane on the bench the dogs will go as low as I need without sticking up above the stock. Another reason I have them is I use the same 3/4 round holes for holdfasts, which I probably actually use the most. Bench dogs in general can be a pain if you don't have easy access under your bench to push them up. You can screw a little block to then end of a couple of inches of 3/4 dowel for quick stops that drop in from the top.

 

[Monty]

Nice progress on the bench!

The only requirement that I'm aware of for dog hole spacing is that they be less than the vise jaw opening. Having said that, my dog holes are spaced 6-1/2" for my twin-screw end vise. I also put the first row of holes within a few inches of the end of the bench. For my front vise, I put the first row of holes right in the apron stock.

Jonz mentions a good point about the spacing - you want them close enough (within reason) so you don't have to crank the vise all day each time you switch to a different workpiece. I know it doesn't sound like a big deal, but when you have to switch back & forth you find yourself looking for a spacer block to keep from having to crank the dang vise so much.

The round Veritas dogs that you link to are excellent - well worth the investment IMHO. You have to bore the vise all the way through, otherwise you wouldn't be able to push the dog up. My vise jaw is also 6" wide, and since the dog hole is only 3/4" diameter my finger won't reach the dog - I have to stick a pencil up there to push the dog up.

 

[JackLeg]

I've got some of the plastic dogs from Rockler, I think, and unless you plan to really crank down on them, they're an inexpensive way to start. I also have the brass ones.

 

[JimmyC]

I agree with Chris and Monty about spacing closer together, the amount of time spent adding extra holes now will save a lot of aggravation later. The only time I would have larger spacing would be if I were using a quick release vise. Then you could make them a little further apart. One other reason for making the holes close together is that some vises rack slightly and the further that they are opened the better chance you have of racking.

Just my opinion.

Good Luck,
Jimmy

 

[Travis Porter]

I agree with all the comments you have received.

Is that PARTICLE BOARD that i see?

 

[cpowell]

Is that PARTICLE BOARD that i see?

That is particle board. 8-O

The instructions I found online for vise mounting suggested the spacer material be either particle board or MDF. I didn't have either on hand and found the particle board at the BORG in a small size in the thickness I needed. The small-sized MDF I found was tread material - too thick - and I didn't want to buy a 4x8 sheet of MDF.

The front vise required particle board and a stainless steel sheet metal shim (geesh, that's a tongue twister) in order to make the vise rear jaw mortise workable. How's that for a "rig" job?

Do you foresee a problem with particle board or are you just trying to capitalize on my technique for your ongoing bench project? I am assuming that new Felder you bought can handle the demands of cutting particle board, ... right? :lol: :lol:


Chuck

 

[Travis Porter]

Once I finish getting the Felder up and a scoring blade in it, it should be able to handle particle board :lol:.

No, I don't think you will have any problems with it unless you get it wet, just seems kind of different.

 

[MikeL]

Chuck, you've made great progress on your bench. Thanks for the photos documenting the build....very helpful. Good luck with the rest! :eusa_clap

Mike

 

[cpowell]

Thanks all for the feedback. :icon_thum

I'll lay out the holes tonight on paper with a shorter spacing and drill the jaws with through holes. The Large Economy Vise I'm using does not have extremely tight tolerances on the rod guides so some racking is expected. Surprisingly, the racking is no worse than the Groz quick release vise I'm using on the front. For the money, I think I'm gonna like that end vise a lot.

Note to self: "Remember to space dog holes so I miss the trestle top". :lol: :lol:

Monty, I like the idea of dog holes in the apron stock for the front vise. I will not bore dog holes in the top for the front vise initially but will go ahead and drill holes in the front vise and apron. Since I'm going with round holes I can add more on the fly as needed.

I'll update my post in the "Workshops" section once I actually make some noteworthy progress.


Chuck

 

[cpowell]

One more thought...I plan to use Johnson's wax to lube the guide rods. What's the easiest lubricant to use on the screw? I have cleaned off most of the gunk/grease factory coating.

Chuck

 

[Travis Porter]

I would/am using spray on dry lube. Have had zero issues with it. I got some DuPont Teflon Multi-Use at Lowes. It will work on the guide rods as well. I have used it on my saw trunnion gears in the past with good results.

 

[Alan in Little Washington]

I also have a couple dog questions for you bench makers- I bought the rectangular dogs (from?) for whenever I get around to making my bench, but have been thinking about the round dogs. Questions:

Do you slant round dog holes towards the vise like you do with rectangular dogs? Why/why not?

I know Monty had issue with this- what is the minimum top thickness for the typical dog so the springs engage without the dog being too high above the table? If I remember correctly it was pretty thick, maybe 3" + ?

 

[cpowell]

I also have a couple dog questions for you bench makers- I bought the rectangular dogs (from?) for whenever I get around to making my bench, but have been thinking about the round dogs. Questions:

Do you slant round dog holes towards the vise like you do with rectangular dogs? Why/why not?

I know Monty had issue with this- what is the minimum top thickness for the typical dog so the springs engage without the dog being too high above the table? If I remember correctly it was pretty thick, maybe 3" + ?

Alan, from what I've scoured from the web, round holes can be bored perpendicular to the top. If making your own dogs, just angle the flat on the top of the dog by 2 degrees toward the vise to keep the stock from wanting to ride upward.

I'm not sure about bench top thickness...glad you brought it up. My top is 2.75 inches thick.


Chuck

 

[Monty]

Good point about the bench thickness. 2-3/4" should be just fine for the round dogs, and probably will work fine for the square ones, too. The issue has to do with where the "spring" makes contact with the wood wall of the dog hole. In the round dogs, that contact point is fairly close to the top, whereas it's lower down with their square dogs:

You can see that the Veritas square dogs exert lateral pressure a couple of inches down from the top - that's why the bench needs to be close to 3" thick (mine is about 2-7/8"). Keep in mind that this is only important for holding the bench dog in place very close to the bench surface - as in handplaning a very thin piece of wood. You don't have to make the bench so it holds the dog that low in order to be able to plane thin stock. You could, for example, place the thin stock on a sled with a low fence, and hold the sled in place with your bench dogs. Also keep in mind that the way the Veritas square dog spring is designed is not the way a shop-made dog would probably work:

This spring would hold just fine in a thinner bench. There are also other brands of commercial square bench dogs that have a spring design similar to what you see in the above picture.

Hope this helps...

 

[Jonz]

Yeah the Veritas round dogs are designed to be perpendicular to the bench top. The face where you butt the stock is milled at 2 degrees to keep a little downward pressure on the workpiece.

My top is a prefab, I think 1.5" or so (I'd measure but I'm in the office at the moment) and I use the pups as well as holdfasts with no problems at all.

Great big slabs of bench are great but they are not a requirement IMO. But if I was building I'd go thicker too, just well, because. :lol:

 

[Travis Porter]

My bench will be around 2 3/4" thick, but my dog strip (I am using square dogs) will be 4 3/4" thick. That is one way to workaround not having to make the entire bench extra thick to account for the dogs you will be using.

 

[Gofor]

Chuck, for the hole spacing, start at the side vise location and figure what spacing will give you two holes that won't hit the below table hardware, and then walk it up to the end vise.

My bench top spacings are 5", which was derived from starting at the side vise and getting my optimum spacing for two holes without hitting hardware, and then progressing to the end and adjusting as needed to get uniform holes (really only a matter of aesthetics, not funtionality) [Don't know if functionality is a "Webster" word, but it says what I mean concerning uniformly spaced holes].

I did the same as Travis, ie made my dog strip 4" and the rest of my top thinner. My homemade dogs are 6".

For those of you with a bench in progress that have chosen the tail vise instead of the end vise, a tip: Beings the tail vise is deeper (mine is 20" deep using an 18" screw), you can vary the spacing in the vise portion because it will hold several dog holes (I spaced mine at 3.5, 4.5 and 5" as that worked well for the depth of the vise minus jaw caps/aprons). I used square holes slanted (like Monty's). Wish I started them in the aprons as I have a 4" minimum, but it is difficult to put a slanted square hole in the apron/jaw face. By varying the spacing, you crank a lot less on the vise.

Not trying to waylay your thread, Chuck, and the side vise does come into play with your spacing as you have to miss the below table hardware, but i know others are in-progress with their benches and some have mentioned using tail vises.

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