WW Machine Guy

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Bob Carreiro

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Bob
Maybe this isn't the place to post this, but...

Recently discovered a tiny nick in one of my jointer knives and was thinking of the eventual need to replace/resharpen them as I HATE doing this kind of work! I thought, How much would I be willing to pay a guy to stop by, replace the knives with sharpened ones taking mine in exchange? I thought 100 bucks seems OK providing the machine was left in "set-up" condition when he left. Does this sound like a reasonable profession for a guy who knows his WW machines? Then there's the planer knives! YUCK, they're even worse!!! But wait, there's more... new blades/roller bearings on the BS, tuning the TS, the DC sys... can these common tasks be parted out at reasonable costs too?

I'd like to call "The Guy," tell him what brand/model jointer/planer/whatever I have, and the next day he shows up, replaces the blades or whatever and does a quick tune. After a while, he'd be good at this and have a fair share of blades, knives, whatever on stock, at least for the more popular machines and be able to tune them in a snap! Does this sound like a profitable profession for the right guy? And at a 100 buck a pop, does it sound reasonable? How about you... does it sound like work you'd want to part out? Or maybe YOU would be The Guy to call? Post your thoughts.

Bob
 

Mike Davis

Mike
Corporate Member
Bill and I are planning a workshop for anyone wanting to learn these procedures. Maybe there is a guy just waiting to learn or someone who would like to help teach.

I can do most of that on the weekends but I don't think I could support my family on the small number of jobs to do and the long distances to be covered as a full time career.
 

merrill77

Master Scrap Maker
Chris
Corporate Member
I have had a similar question floating around in my head, except I want the head on my 15" planer swapped for a Byrd. Dunno what that labor would cost...but the only thing holding me back from buying the Bryd is the thought of blowing 2 weeks worth of my shop time just to change the darn thing...
 

Woodman2k

Greg Bender
Corporate Member
Chris,
why would it take you two weeks to change the head on your machine .If you prepare for it and have the ability to press off and on the bearings it should not take more than 6 or 7 hours figuring something would inevitability would come up. Familiarize yourself with your machine's assembly and it should go quickly.It's not like you'll be the first to attempt it.
Greg
 

Sully

New User
jay
I can't imagine myself paying anyone to do any of those tasks.

I could possibly see it being cost effective for a production shop where they don't have the time or staff to dedicate to the task.

$0.02
J
 

TedAS

Ted
Corporate Member
I can't imagine myself paying anyone to do any of those tasks.

I could possibly see it being cost effective for a production shop where they don't have the time or staff to dedicate to the task.

$0.02
J

+1:icon_scra
 

Glennbear

Moderator
Glenn
I like the idea although I would rather do it myself than pay someone else. Current economic times are tough but in a better economy if you can provide a service that folks would rather not do themselves there are customers. The greatest example I have seen of this phenomena is the guy who started a service to make regular visits to your property to scoop up dog poop. :wsmile:
 

TedAS

Ted
Corporate Member
I can't imagine myself paying anyone to do any of those tasks.

I could possibly see it being cost effective for a production shop where they don't have the time or staff to dedicate to the task.

$0.02
J

+1 :icon_scra Fixin and adjustin is half the fun of wood working!!!
 

ehpoole

Ethan
Corporate Member
As a Type-A/Perfectionist personality I may be a little biased on this subject, but heregoes...

The Zen:
As frustrating as it may be to have to spend time setting up, adjusting, and maintaining a brand new (or a new-to-me) tool, I can not help but to think of this as an essential learning experience. The time and effort one invests in these tasks imparts an intimate understanding of the tool that I don't feel simply reading the manual (or a book) could ever impart. If one never took the time to setup the tool then it becomes difficult to know when something is genuinely, albeit subtly, wrong with the machine. Think of it as something of a rite of passage with respect to admission to our *ahem* distinguished club we collectively call 'woodworking'.

Granted, an invidual who missed out on this process (or ordeal, reader's choice) will still be able to determine there is something wrong with the motor when it goes up in smoke one day. But will they understand why their jointer has suddenly, one day, begun cutting tapers because someone slightly, likely unknowingly, dislodged the outfeed table by a mil or two. Perhaps even more importantly, an individual who never took ownership for setting up and maintaining their tool(s) is unlikely to have the necessary tools and jigs needed to verify proper setup -- both for regular maintenance and for double-checking setup when concern that some setting may have drifted arises. Is such an individual going to happily fork over the $100+ if the "WW Guy" concludes the tool is setup just fine (and we'll assume that's correct for the moment) and simply tells the owner that their technique must be flawed? (Remember, the "WW Guy" is an expert in setting up and maintaining tools, not a master or teacher of their use.)

The Business Argument:
Keep in mind, also, that $100/call is unlikely unless there is a huge mass of such customers in a small and concentrated region most of whom must have need for only small jobs. More likely would be a per-call/visit fee (to cover travel) plus an hourly charge of $50-100/hr (experience is seldom cheap). Some jobs are an hour or less, but other jobs can take the better part of a day to work out, so low flat-rate fees would require a lot of 15-minute jobs to offset the jobs that take hours to complete. Then we get to the multiple-visit jobs when a tool has a bad part -- one visit to identify and order the needed part, another visit to install and recheck tool setup once installed. Just getting all the cosmoline cleaned off and out of a large tool takes a good deal of time.

Add on to that insurance costs (auto plus both personal injury and property) to protect both the owner and the "WW Guy" should something go wrong (dropped cast iron wing, back injury, etc.). If they amass a large parts and supplies inventory then that also adds more to their operating expenses. Depending upon where they live and whether they are in a corporated (city) or unincorporated (county) location, then they may also need to pay for an annual occupational permit (business permit) which may be either a flat fee or a sliding scale based upon volume or industry. Of course, there are the usual taxes to deal with. I don't know what sales and use tax reporting is like in NC, but here in SC it is a nightmare -- each county, local option exceptions, over age 85 exceptions, and reservation exceptions each of which must be independently reported -- if you travel or ship to in-state customers (Florida, on the other hand, is a breeze to file and report and would only require quarterly returns from such an owner/operator -- you report only by applicable tax rate (in 0.25% increments) for each purchase with food items as the only exception (not per county, city, exception, etc. as with SC)). The complexity or simplicity of reporting and compliance with respect to applicable taxes will also enter into the fee schedule. My best guess is that you would probably have to pay an installer at least a few hundred dollars to justify the travel and time involved to setup a new tablesaw from start to finish. (Please focus on the business side of this question, let's not get into a debate on the merits of taxes.)

Another way to think of it all: Just think of how much we often spend just to have a tool delivered. Now consider the last time you had to have a car towed to a mechanic -- which did you spend more for -- the tow truck or the mechanic's labor? Now consider that you are hiring the mechanic to come to your car instead, which also means having to transport all the necessary tools and equipment. Mobile mechanics exist, but you generally pay a premium for the added convenience.

The Alternative:
All of this said, If you make it well known to the NCWW community that you need help with setting up a new tool, or modifying an existing tool, you will likely find that some member near you will volunteer to assist. Especially with proper incentive. :eek:ccasion1 Reminder: Don't forget the requisite photos -- you will be reminded that without pics it did not happen!

My health does not allow me to travel, but if anyone in my area of Anderson, SC ever needed a hand and could bring the tool to me, I'd be more than happy to help them out so long as they realize that I have to take a lot of breaks and overheat easily (even in A/C), so I set no records for speed. :wink_smil I already have all the tools necessary for most any job and my incentive is pretty cheap -- just pay it forward, no alcohol required, as I much prefer water.

Just my $0.02.
 

Mike Davis

Mike
Corporate Member
Very well said, I have to say in every case where I have helped set up or repair a machine the owner helped and learned.
 

merrill77

Master Scrap Maker
Chris
Corporate Member
+1 :icon_scra Fixin and adjustin is half the fun of wood working!!!

-1

I like to build things. Fixing them is considerably less interesting for me...particularly if I've already done it or something similar. I've fixed plenty of machines in my life. While I may learn something doing a full head replacement on my planer, I'd rather be building something unique and beautiful.
 

merrill77

Master Scrap Maker
Chris
Corporate Member
Chris,
why would it take you two weeks to change the head on your machine .If you prepare for it and have the ability to press off and on the bearings it should not take more than 6 or 7 hours figuring something would inevitability would come up. Familiarize yourself with your machine's assembly and it should go quickly.It's not like you'll be the first to attempt it.
Greg

You'll note that I said two weeks of my shop time. Including an hour to run out and buy a bearing puller and 4 hours to re-do whatever mistakes I make (nearly inevitable), that gets close to a 12 hour job. I get maybe 6 hours in my shop per week. Hence, I would trade 2 full weeks of my relaxation/fun time for 2 weeks of doing something I don't particularly want to do.

I'd pay $100 for someone to do this for me in a heartbeat.

sıɹɥɔ
 

ehpoole

Ethan
Corporate Member
I don't know, sounds like your real problem isn't installing the Byrd head but rather that you simply need to come up with more shop time! :wink_smil (As if I'm one to talk, I have all the shop time in the world but have not been well enough this past year to spend much time in my shop.)

If you were in my neck of the woods I'd offer to lend a hand (esp. if you brought it by my shop -- see earlier post), odds are I have most every tool you could need for such a job -- gear pullers and slide hammers included (Ebay and Amazon are great sources for such tools these days). I'm sure there are others that would be willing to help -- sometimes just having a partner-in-crime is all it takes to turn a dull boring task into a fun and relaxing one.

Nobody here is going to knock you for paying someone to do the job for you, it's just that you're likely to be limited to retirees and teenagers looking for pocket change and odd jobs at the $100 level. It just is not a price point that is ever likely to appeal to a professional business.

Either way, I wish you all the best.
 

Bob Carreiro

New User
Bob
-1

I like to build things. Fixing them is considerably less interesting for me...particularly if I've already done it or something similar. I've fixed plenty of machines in my life. While I may learn something doing a full head replacement on my planer, I'd rather be building something unique and beautiful.


You nailed it Chris, and is the reason for my post!

Tuning WWing machines, like adjusting blades/bearings on a BS isn't really a bother, anymore than changing bits and set-ups on a router table, but removing jointer knives, sharpening them (ugh), then replacing and adjusting them is - at least to me! And double-ditto for planer knives!

I haven't attempted to pop the hood on cars since I was a kid, and then it was only out of necessity, because I do not enjoy that kind of work. But designing & building stuff is what WWing is all about to me. Others may like cutting down the tree and running a saw-mill, some like collecting and rebuilding the tools of the trade, and still others choose a project for things not yet experienced, etc., etc. That ain't it for me - never has been. I like desinging & building stuff! I like imagining what I would like to see, how it should work/function, and devise a way to build it - build it better, stronger and more functional, and do the work as efficiently as possible all along the way. And when it's done, I typically critisize the heck out of myself for all the ways I could have improved anything about it along the way.

Whatever the likes or dislikes, whatever the glories or gloom, it's still all about working with wood and the joys it brings. I love it and I know you do too!
 

ehpoole

Ethan
Corporate Member
Tuning WWing machines, like adjusting blades/bearings on a BS isn't really a bother, anymore than changing bits and set-ups on a router table, but removing jointer knives, sharpening them (ugh), then replacing and adjusting them is - at least to me! And double-ditto for planer knives!

With regard to knives, I keep two sets on hand and send the used set out for sharpening ($30 for three 8" knives -- my local Woodcraft owner handles pick up and drop off). I sharpen most of my own blades and knives, but my sharpening setup maxes out around 2-1/2", so 8"+ knives are not practical for me to sharpen. As for installing jointer knives, once you have the tables adjusted to be coplanar with one another and the cutterhead shimmed level across the table's width (generally a one-time setup), installing the knives is really very little trouble with any of the better jigs made for such (either commercial or shop made).

I mention this because in my experience difficulty setting up the knives is often a sign that the rest of the jointer is not properly setup. Once the tables and cutterhead are all properly aligned (shim with brass shimstock where needed) with one another the knives are fairly simple to set in my experience. If you have "Quickset" knives (spring loaded) you simply use a jig (often provided) to press the knives in so that they are an even and fixed height over the length of the cutterhead (which, in turn, should already be parallel to the tables) and then tighten the gib bolts to secure the knives. You then adjust the outfeed table to be even with (or a mil lower than) TDC of the knives. If you have the more traditional knives, a magnetic jig that secures (with magnets) to the outfeed table and suspends the knives (with magnets) at TDC (top dead center) which will hold the knives at the proper height while you tighten the gib bolts to secure the knives. This simple jig holds each knife parallel to, and even with, the outfeed table (which in turn should be even and coplanar with the infeed table).

I can't comment with respect to planers since my planer is a DW735, which uses disposable insert knives, and thus I have no direct experience setting up traditional planer knives.

I hope this info proves helpful. But, if not, I felt it worth mentioning just in case.
 

bob vaughan

Bob Vaughan
Senior User
(edit)As frustrating as it may be to have to spend time setting up, adjusting, and maintaining a brand new (or a new-to-me) tool, I can not help but to think of this as an essential learning experience,(edit)

That was an excellent and well thought out post.

I do some of that kind of on-site work. but generally for institutional and industrial shops. Working in a single man recreational woodworking shop is rare.

I’ll pull up to the site with around 1000 lbs of tools and stuff in my van. That’ll includes demountable hydraulic press, 10 tool boxes for most eventualities, boxes of parts for both Delta and Powermatic machines, a pretty complete ball bearing inventory and a box full of sharpened knives for the various machines I’m likely to encounter.

I charge $75.00/hr for the time I’m endeavoring to complete the work. The customer’s time starts when I turn over the engine in my drive and stops when the van is back home. The part of my work I hate the most is travel. If I have to travel 6 hours (3 each way) then work for a couple hours, the customer pays for 8 hours labor.

To me, setting jointer and planer knives is the simple work. Changing bearings is more complicated and risky. I’ll also often have to take parts back to the shop for machining or re-making, then back to the site for installation. That’s just part of it.

Recreational wood shops often have unrealistic expectations from someone doing on-site work. They read somewhere that a cheap crap machine “works just fine”, so they want me to come in and make this machine work as well as was stated by someone on the Internet or in a hobby woodworking magazine. In many cases, it can’t be done and I’m in the uncomfortable position of having to tell a man this face to face.

I’m usually happy to help someone with a detail or two on their machine that they’re working on. As to doing the total job for them, I have to get some very specific disclosures as to the end result expected or I don’t get off the dime.
 
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